Death without Dying

[Eilonnwy]

Okay, this is getting into some philisophical BS, but bear with me, my thoughts may be sloppy but it occurred to me in the car ride home. This might turn out to be interesting, who knows.

I would assume many atheists here do not believe in a soul, therefore no dualistic brain. Essentially, everything that makes us us, our thoughts, personality, wants, desires, etc... It all exists in the brain. Expanding on that, we believe when we die that nothing happens. We're dead...it's just like it was before we were born, a whole lot of nothing.

Considering this, say if you were to have a bad accident and you lost all your memories and you personality changes from severe brain trauma, does that mean you, essentially the person you are now, is as good as dead? I mean your body is alive, genetically you're exactly the same, it's just your personality is different and memories are gone. Is the "old" you the equivalent of dead?

Obviously the scenario has the big if of whether or not you can regain your memories and personality after therapy, so for the sake of argument, let's say it's permanent. What's your answer?

I think I currently take the stance that what makes me me is dead, and essentially I have died even if my body still remains. My body may be still alive, but my sense of self is dead.

Thoughts?

[Retorth]

I would also go with it making me dead. I may look the same, sound the same but my personality is what makes me, me. Without it, my body is but an empty shell.

If it's temporary, then the real me is "in there" somewhere but if it is permanent, then I'd say the original me is as good as dead.

I like this thought...really leaves one wondering. Good sharing, Eilonnwy.

[fr0d0]

So this surviving you just has no memories. It's you at year dot. Still with the traits that will go to make you, the instincts, the propensity to touch, smell, taste, feel, see will produce a person with those same attributes but the influences that mold you will be starting new. You'll be new to your surroundings and people around you.

I think that "you're" still alive.

[Edwardo Piet]

First you have to define what "you" are...what is you? If what you are includes your body, then you're still you...perhaps just 'not fully' because your personality has changed.

If however you think of yourself as essentially your personality, then if your personality has totally changed then you are no longer you in that sense.

So I think it's a semantic thing. Whether you think of yourself (or perhaps rather...your "self") as a mind, a body, or both.

EvF

[Secularone]

So this surviving you just has no memories. It's you at year dot. Still with the traits that will go to make you, the instincts, the propensity to touch, smell, taste, feel, see will produce a person with those same attributes but the influences that mold you will be starting new. You'll be new to your surroundings and people around you.

I think that "you're" still alive.

I think the lady said the condition was permanent. Therefore, the old person is dead. Let's say that person accepted Jesus as their saviour and loved him with all their heart. But those memories are gone.
Now this new person that developes, doesn't know Jesus from Jack and becomes a critical thinker and is impossible to convert. In fact, becomes just like me, a hard core atheist that firmly belives the Christian god to be a monster and lunatic.
So, after a few years, the person dies the physical death.
1. Does this person who died twice go to heaven despising god or go to hell despising god?
2. Where's the equity in all this?

And so it is with me. I was born an atheist. In my youth I accepted Jesus as my savior, loved him with all heart, soul, mind and strength. Then I woke up and realized the truth. So, I abandoned Jesus in favor of better values and a critical thinking mind. A mind that despises the monster lunatic you call god. So, one could say the old me died and I was spiritually born again, again. In a few years, I'll die. Where will I go?
I'll only say that if I go to heaven, there's going to be one very miserable god there.

[theVOID]

I guess you the machine are alive, but your persona and ego which is entirely a product of experience and memory are gone.

But there is always the genetic component of our personality that may be far more substantial than we have supposed. It may be fair to say that while you don't have the same memories, friendships, relationships, ect you may be the same person or very close to that it your style of speech, mannerisms, interests, beliefs, taste in music etcetera.

Is there a case where permanent memory loss has ever occurred? And what were the findings in that example?

[Eilonnwy]

Is there a case where permanent memory loss has ever occurred? And what were the findings in that example?

I don't know about permanent memory loss. I believe it's possibly but I don't know about specific cases. I have heard of cases where severe brain trauma can actually change how a person acts. I saw a billboard for some brain trauma therapy place and it made me think of this...if you changed your personality from trauma and also couldn't remember you past, would it make that past self dead?

The responses I have gotten so far are interesting. I still think I stand by my assessment that if you lose your memory and sense of self, then that self is dead even if the body isn't.

This also reminds me of reincarnation. I mean essentially you can't remember who you are in any of the lives, so what's the point? I will still be dead even if my "soul" exists again, but if I can't remember and I'm not the same person, then the me that is me right now is gone for ever and that's it. It's pretty much the same as no afterlife at all. Of course I don't believe in reincarnation, it's a ridiculous concept.

[theVOID]

Is there a case where permanent memory loss has ever occurred? And what were the findings in that example?

I don't know about permanent memory loss. I believe it's possibly but I don't know about specific cases. I have heard of cases where severe brain trauma can actually change how a person acts. I saw a billboard for some brain trauma therapy place and it made me think of this...if you changed your personality from trauma and also couldn't remember you past, would it make that past self dead?

The responses I have gotten so far are interesting. I still think I stand by my assessment that if you lose your memory and sense of self, then that self is dead even if the body isn't.

This also reminds me of reincarnation. I mean essentially you can't remember who you are in any of the lives, so what's the point? I will still be dead even if my "soul" exists again, but if I can't remember and I'm not the same person, then the me that is me right now is gone for ever and that's it. It's pretty much the same as no afterlife at all. Of course I don't believe in reincarnation, it's a ridiculous concept.

I don't think every aspect of what would be considered your 'personal mind' would be dead though, there is also the genetic aspect to contend with, but i agree for the most part, you would in a sense be dead to those familiar with how you were.

Then again it could be more like the computer and the Operating system. My machine is still the same, doesn't matter if it's running XP, 7 or Linux. The virtual characteristics have changed but the machine is one and the same. I assume our virtual mind works the same.

[Eilonnwy]

I don't think every aspect of what would be considered your 'personal mind' would be dead though, there is also the genetic aspect to contend with, but i agree for the most part, you would in a sense be dead to those familiar with how you were.

Then again it could be more like the computer and the Operating system. My machine is still the same, doesn't matter if it's running XP, 7 or Linux. The virtual characteristics have changed but the machine is one and the same. I assume our virtual mind works the same.

What specific genetic aspect are you referring to? I am not a neuroscientist, so I could be completely wrong, but it's my understanding that our sense of self comes from our brain regulated by chemicals, etc.. So if that chemical balance is completed altered by a severe trauma, does that not change the genetic factors of your personality? Please correct me if I'm wrong.

[theVOID]

I don't think every aspect of what would be considered your 'personal mind' would be dead though, there is also the genetic aspect to contend with, but i agree for the most part, you would in a sense be dead to those familiar with how you were.

Then again it could be more like the computer and the Operating system. My machine is still the same, doesn't matter if it's running XP, 7 or Linux. The virtual characteristics have changed but the machine is one and the same. I assume our virtual mind works the same.

What specific genetic aspect are you referring to? I am not a neuroscientist, so I could be completely wrong, but it's my understanding that our sense of self comes from our brain regulated by chemicals, etc.. So if that chemical balance is completed altered by a severe trauma, does that not change the genetic factors of your personality? Please correct me if I'm wrong.

Putting it all down to chemicals oversimplifies a great deal, there is also the physical topology of the brain as well as genetic information in the genome that is known as a few different things, Carl Jung first dubbed them Racial memory and cultural memory, there is also Birth memory which is a memory acquired without sensory experience or remembering the way we do normally.

Memory can also be inherited through meiosis and mitosis, again related to cultural and racial memory.