Explain to me the math behind redemption

[The Grand Nudger]

I'd agree that any of those things would seem to be a better way of showing love than slitting some poor animals throat and raining it's blood down upon us from the heavens.

[ronedee]

Kindly point to anything "logical"......take your time.

I didn't know "Personal Logic" needed more explanation. YMMV

You keep capitalizing the word love, and following it up with exclamation marks....I'd say you're speaking -very emotionally - I even responded in kind. We have a differing opinion on love - but I don't think that you shouldn't be able to tell me about it...or that when you tell me about -your love- it degrades -my experience- of the same in any way. Nor would I expect my opinions on what is or is not love should have some effect on how you experience it.

I do use CAPS for EMPHESIS!! Wouldn't want you to miss anything!!

I also don't think I've tried to tell you how to love anything?

I'd just like to know what it [ghosts!] added to you...this is the second time I've asked the question...so the comment that follows seems to be a very inaccurate assessment of our situation Ron.

[by ronedee]In a nutshell? You aren't interested in adding anything to your thinking, and I'm not interested in subtracting a thing from my beliefs!

:looks up:

....The Holy Spirit is the Teacher, and Word of God.... with us!

I didn't realize that we were keeping any scores....

I tried to be funny...considering the thread title!

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You in turn, haven't explained why this wouldn't be the best way for [a] God to show His love for us?

I can think of dozens of better ways for a god to show its love for us, like eradicating all disease, enough food growing on the planet for everyone to eat, naturally-occurring beer fountains, making donuts make us lose weight, and naked Fridays (after making everyone look sexy, naturally).

Great!

Petition God for changes! You may need to stand in-line for a while!

[The Grand Nudger]

I didn't know "Personal Logic" needed more explanation. YMMV

It most certainly does - I was as unaware of -it's- existence as I was of any vicariously redemptive mechanisms existence. Now you have two fantastic things to explain.

I do use CAPS for EMPHESIS!! Wouldn't want you to miss anything!!

I also don't think I've tried to tell you how to love anything?

You haven't - but since I never claimed that you did I don't understand why the question is being asked. What I -did- do was explain that we have a different opinion of what might constitute love. Simply stated -mine does not contain the shrugging off of one's own inequities upon another in order to absolve one's self of the consequences thereof - yours does.

....The Holy Spirit is the Teacher, and Word of God.... with us!

That's all well and good.......

What did the holy spirit- as a teacher, and as the word of god - when it was with you...add to you- so that you understood that scapegoating was love whereas before you had concerns that it was not.........?

Don't you think that a piece of information like that might clear up this whole misconception between us rather swiftly?

[ronedee]

What did the holy spirit- as a teacher, and as the word of god - when it was with you...add to you- so that you understood that scapegoating was love whereas before you had concerns that it was not.........?

Don't you think that a piece of information like that might clear up this whole misconception between us rather swiftly?

I thought I explained it in [my logic] already. Humans died at God's hands, and God died at ours! To over-simplify it; We both paid the price for free-will and sin!

Free will was needed to be an independent creation (not robots), and sin was the result of our free will and independence. We wanted what God was/is without asking for it!

I can't put it any simpler than that, which is way too simple, bordering blasphemous.

[The Grand Nudger]

Humans died at God's hands, and God died at ours! To over-simplify it; We both paid the price for free-will and sin!

I was under the impression that we died "at our own hands" as it were, the wages of sin - and that this somehow established our responsibility for that. If it's just an issue of god killing us, couldn't he have simply stopped doing that (and what are we responsible for in this scenario as stated...what am I supposed to be shrugging off onto this sacrificial lamb in the first place)? Further, why is this love...love in parity? God felt shitty about knocking us off, so he decided to throw us a (1) bone? I don't know that this really offers any recompense - and I definitely still don't understand how this transforms any of it into love?

So say I beat my children (for whatever reason). Later on I decided to let them beat me (to make up for it..ostensibly-or because it will reverse some decision I made which led to the beatings). Does this absolve me of my actions? Am I no longer an abusive father? Reverse these roles. I was abused by my children, would their allowing me to abuse them absolve them? Now add a third party....in either case abuse that third party (or the third party can be unconnected to either of the first two)....

at what point does any of this become love?

It seems to me that in any case a hefty portion of the equation must be ignored. If it were love because "he so loved that he sacrificed his only begotten" why is it not also a case of "and he so loved that he refused to accept"? Now don't get me wrong, I reckon it takes alot of love to sacrifice yourself for someone......but I don't think it takes a whole hell of alot of love to tell someone that they needn't (and shouldn't) sacrifice themselves on account of some shitty thing that one did. When I say that I don't see love in this I'm not criticizing your god or it's motivations (I've already told you this) I'm wondering about the recipient of said gift (which I've already explained).

If gods love for me has overwhelmed his better judgement that wouldn't surprise me (I mentioned already that I figure I'd attempt the same for my children)....but to conceive of it this way does away with all questions on this count anyway, doesn't it. God wasn't thinking straight - and that explains handily how things got so fucked up. But here we are now....and looking at this sad little drama play out with some time between then and now, if I can look at the situation and say...yeah, I could have handled that better, don;t you think that god could probably do the same (if not exceed my ability in this regard?). Clearly, I understand that I've deviated from your expressly stated position here..but I'm just playing with how far I can take your position and run with it - insofar as I can work it out.

Free will was needed to be an independent creation (not robots), and sin was the result of our free will and independence. We wanted what God was/is without asking for it!

I can't put it any simpler than that, which is way too simple, bordering blasphemous.

Okay...but what where you trying to put simply....I get the feeling that you might be trying to answer a question I haven't asked you Ron, or that you don't understand the question I've asked?

[Zarith]

I thought I explained it in [my logic] already. Humans died at God's hands, and God died at ours! To over-simplify it; We both paid the price for free-will and sin!

But if death is separation from God, then God cannot die. If the trinity is one, it doesn't make sense for one member of it to be separated from the others.

It seems that the existence of this problem is rather well known by Christians, and has been for quite some time, and that there exist significant differences of opinion as to whether or not Jesus actually experienced separation from God and/or divine retribution while on the cross. Is this not the case? You would think that a question as important as this would be worked out. Some cite his utterance from Psalms 22 in support of this claim, others say it isn't so. Don't you think God would wish to clear this kind of confusion up -- or perhaps not have it exist in the first place?

[ronedee]

Okay...but what where you trying to put simply....I get the feeling that you might be trying to answer a question I haven't asked you Ron, or that you don't understand the question I've asked?

Is "sin" the sticking point here? Because we can't have it, and God too! Ultimately we (Christians) will be united with God and share in His divinity. Be ONE with Him. That's the only way it could be. There can be no separations at that point.

But first....let me ask you this for the sake of conversation... What does [a] God need to do to give His creation, His divinity? And without Him serving man?

Lets just explore that for a minute. Because, ultimately this is the reason for all the confusion in religion. How [a] God is going to make it all right in the end?

Omni-potent/essent sounds like there's no problem. Right? Well no! We are talking about God's own being that He's giving to us! That's a heap more complicated than waving a hand over a top hat, and a rabbit jumping out.

The Angels were the first of God's creations. Lucifer wanted to be like God. And that was because he was made apart from God. And that is why we need to be united with God as one in Heaven.

When thrown into hell, St. Michael said to Lucifer: "Who is like God?" And thus the "lie" to man: "...eat the fruit of this tree and be like God." Then the consequences of our actions...

We are cursed by God, put out of paradise and our flesh becomes mortal at God's hand, and we die. Most don't understand the gravity of the sin.

This is important, because we deny our Creator in that act of sin. And want to take the very power that created us! We had a choice. And we still do!

God wanted His creation to Love. Jesus said that we were "given to Him by the Father." Jesus bridged the gap between us and the Father. The Holy Spirit is the Love between them, and us.

There was no need for us. But Love for us. Because Love is multiplied in His creation! Your thoughts?

---

I thought I explained it in [my logic] already. Humans died at God's hands, and God died at ours! To over-simplify it; We both paid the price for free-will and sin!

But if death is separation from God, then God cannot die. If the trinity is one, it doesn't make sense for one member of it to be separated from the others.

It seems that the existence of this problem is rather well known by Christians, and has been for quite some time, and that there exist significant differences of opinion as to whether or not Jesus actually experienced separation from God and/or divine retribution while on the cross. Is this not the case? You would think that a question as important as this would be worked out. Some cite his utterance from Psalms 22 in support of this claim, others say it isn't so. Don't you think God would wish to clear this kind of confusion up -- or perhaps not have it exist in the first place?

Jesus' humanity was allowed to experience everything but sin!

When on the cross Jesus experienced our sins and the death that it leads to.

When He cried out, "Father why have you forsaken me". That was the final human experience of being alone. So, Jesus was never separated from the Father but for that moment of "feeling" separated. Which was necessary to fulfill the whole human experience.

[The Grand Nudger]

Is "sin" the sticking point here? Because we can't have it, and God too! Ultimately we (Christians) will be united with God and share in His divinity. Be ONE with Him. That's the only way it could be. There can be no separations at that point.

No, Ron, vicarious redemption is the sticking point here, as it has been since we began having this discussion.

But first....let me ask you this for the sake of conversation... What does [a] God need to do to give His creation, His divinity? And without Him serving man?

I wouldn't know, nor do I understand why whether or not this god serving man would be an operative factor? (and this...even moreso because you already peddled so many analogies by parenting mind you...are we completely leaving everything already said behind from this point on?)

Lets just explore that for a minute. Because, ultimately this is the reason for all the confusion in religion. How [a] God is going to make it all right in the end?

Okay, lets take two minutes..they're small. I can't say that my confusion about religion arises from this question at all - though it most definitely plays a factor in my confusion about why a person would accept vicarious redemption.

Omni-potent/essent sounds like there's no problem. Right? Well no! We are talking about God's own being that He's giving to us! That's a heap more complicated than waving a hand over a top hat, and a rabbit jumping out.

Actually, it sounds like there's a lot of problems with that - but if there weren't...then it -does- sound like there's nothing holding a god back from anything, yeah. I think you may be missing the crux of my point when you mention this next bit Ron. If vicarious redemption is part of gods being...and that's what he's giving to us - I don't want it. I'm trying to figure out why I would want it in the first place. Though, obviously, an explanation of the mechanics of how this is achieved is going to be appreciated - as will a serious deficit of wands, top hats, and rabbits in the explanation offered.

The Angels were the first of God's creations. Lucifer wanted to be like God. And that was because he was made apart from God. And that is why we need to be united with God as one in Heaven.

-and a little girl with a red cloak took a stroll through the woods one day to visit her grandmother but got waylayed by a talking wolf...but lay that aside.....how does your last sentence follow from any sentence before it? In what way am I to extract a coherent thought from this response? Is the missing link in this chain of thought the implication that we don't want to be like Lucifer? Well, I never met the man but some fairly poignient words have been spoken about him:

"I have no special regard for Satan; but, I can at least claim that I have no prejudice against him. It may even be that I lean a little his way, on account of his not having a fair show. All religions issue bibles against him, and say the most injurious things about him, but we never hear his side. We have none but the evidence for the prosecution, and yet we have rendered the verdict." -Samuel Clemens

When thrown into hell, St. Michael said to Lucifer: "Who is like God?" And thus the "lie" to man: "...eat the fruit of this tree and be like God." Then the consequences of our actions...

Again I see an "and thus" that does not seem to have the prerequisites before it met. In any case, I remember a different promise being made in the narrative and I;m not sure why we seem to be pointing the finger at Lucifer on this one. It was a dragon...and not any angel that told Eve that she would not die from eating the apple (and she didn't), and that she would be like god knowing good and evil (which is apparently precisely what happened).

We are cursed by God, put out of paradise and our flesh becomes mortal at God's hand, and we die. Most don't understand the gravity of the sin.

-and that..IIRC..is why we die, not because some dragon told some female a truth that was inconvenient to the plan of a god...but because that god decided to handle the scuttling of it's plans by laying down an old school curse -que the wands and top hats and rabbits-...which to me...goes a long way towards establishing what can only be called a serious pattern of handling things poorly from the word go. Again I'm reminded that I;m at no loss for reasons that we find ourselves in such a convoluted scenario in the present.

This is important, because we deny our Creator in that act of sin. And want to take the very power that created us! We had a choice. And we still do!

Well I'm not interested in any creators power-I often find myself not wanting to be the boss at the business I own and operate. I miss putting cogs in their place more often than I long for the whip of the boss-man.

God wanted His creation to Love. Jesus said that we were "given to Him by the Father." Jesus bridged the gap between us and the Father. The Holy Spirit is the Love between them, and us.

Okay then, we finally have something to point at and say "aha, god accomplished what he set out to do" I love, and I am myself loved by others. The skies grow bright. But only for a moment...as the clouds gather around this love the very moment I am informed that I have been given to another - without my being consulted- as though I were a bunch of flowers...rather than a living, breathing, thinking, feeling human being - all of these things I was ostensibly created to be...by the very creature that has just married me away to a man I have never met.....and I don't even swing that way Ron....

If a divide exists, whose choice is this in actuality. You don;t seem to be painting a narrative of our having been in the driving seat in any of this here Ron? Nevertheless, if this gap existed...and if this character were the bridge...I still haven't been given any reason to cross it.

There was no need for us. But Love for us. Because Love is multiplied in His creation! Your thoughts?

My thoughts...well, I think that I'm here on my side of the river looking over the bridge at the other shore and what do I see? I see people such as yourself shouting amen as blood rains down upon their manic faces. "Love love love", is the refrain from this ghoulish chorus and I cannot even conceive of something that might compel me to put my foot on that bridge..let alone walk across it.

[Drich]

So you fancy yourself as a forward thinker. Not all of us do. So maybe you can tell me how you got from your orginal questions, to the ones you have about Christ dying for sins?

If there was indeed a 'logical progression' then why not logically 'progress' together?

Sure. Someone told me "Christ/God died on the cross for our sins" and I said, "What? That makes no sense!"

.....and......

[ronedee]

My thoughts...well, I think that I'm here on my side of the river looking over the bridge at the other shore and what do I see? I see people such as yourself shouting amen as blood rains down upon their manic faces. "Love love love", is the refrain from this ghoulish chorus and I cannot even conceive of something that might compel me to put my foot on that bridge..let alone walk across it.

LOL! Well my friend, you make a great case for Atheism!

I'm actually trying to "vicariously" put myself in your shoes. But to do so puts my spiritual evolution in diapers. And I cannot conceive being w/o faith in Jesus!

I guess one could look at the devil and see eloquence and refinement, and God as a leader of ghouls. But what leads a person to that vision? Well...rules would!

The devil is freedom from rule..... and God? We don't have that option.

But freedom is chaos w/o order. All the devil worship has always baffled me! Why would anyone take the inferior entity? LOL!~ my cash is on the BIG guy!

I've spend a lot of time trying to give an explanation of "my thoughts" and "feelings" about God. But, it seems all I've done is baffled you more than you were before. I put things in the simplest terms I could, and much to my dismay at diminishing what God has done for us, for Love. When trying to explain God in secular style...well.... it just don't feel right as a Christian!

Sometimes I feel like I'm better off...and you/all are better served by me/us just blurting out scripture, and general bible thumping. At least, the Word gets out there, and the Holy Spirit can do His thing!

The saving grace? I see hundreds, if not thousands are reading these words. Maybe one or two will get a spark, and go on to explore the Lord and find their own bridge to cross!