In a world without God...

[Minimalist]

This IS a world without god.

We know that and are just waiting for you to catch up.

[Zarith]

Exactly. What kind of sacrifice is it when Jesus rose from the dead to sit in Heaven, and eventually return to earth? And especially since Christians get to spend eternity with him when they die?

And again, why would such a sacrifice even be needed when God is supposedly the all-powerful creator of the universe? If he wanted to forgive everyone, he could just do it instead of coming up with this convoluted "I forgive you but only if you worship my son" nonsense.

Because no Christian I have ever talked to truly believes in an all-powerful God, despite saying that they do. It is usually the first premise that they jettison in an argument, because it is terribly inconvenient to have to defend.

Most of them believe in some notion that God is ... incapable ... of looking upon, or being around, sin. Therefore some form of cleansing or scapegoating or redeeming or blame-shifting or intercession or whatever has to take place, according to them.

Some of them claim to believe that God can do whatever he wants, but that he just chose to do it the way that he did because that's the way that makes the most sense to us. Right.

I'm with you -- for a religion built upon a single act of 'sacrifice', they sure do have an odd definition of the word 'sacrifice'.

[Gilgamesh]

How is this any different than a world with God?

It's not necessarily any different.

[CleanShavenJesus]

Is this another "why do bad things happen?" debate. Seriously?

Bad shit happens and good shit happens. There doesn't have to be a divine reason for any of it. Grow up and get over it.

[LostLocke]

It depends.

On whether or not I was willing to watch over and care for every step of their recovery and reintergration into soceity... For most people I would stop them, because I dont have that kind of time nor those resources. But, God does and has let many people learn that lesson.

It's my goal to let someone step out in front of a bus one day!

Ah, that says quite a bit.

Thank you Clarice, thank you.

[Drich]

All I'd have to do is find one of the many verses which say that God will spill his wrath upon the evil for their iniquity. The entire Old Testament is, well, a testament for the idea of a vengeful, wrathful God.

If you did, I'd ask if you thought we lived in OT times... If so do you have book chapter and verse to support your assertion. If not, then I would ask why you quoted an OT passage to describe a post atonement age?

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lol.....and?

And what Princess?

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I did not know you asked such a question.
The answer is easy. You become aware of Him the same way everyone else has since He told us how to. you Ask, Seek, and Knock as outlined in Luke 11

The bible tell us that Satan and 1/3 of the angels were cast out. These are the deceiving spirits the bible tells us to gaurd against.

I would say there is not other deity/gods, but I am not so foolish to say there is nothing else out there besides man and God. A deceiving spirit by defination could set himself up as a god to someone or make someone a prophet.

Oh nonononononono
You're not getting off that easy!
This thread has the title "In a world without god".
So the working hypothesis is "there is no god".
Under this hypothesis, any holy book is automatically man-made fiction.
"bible says" has no bearing whatsoever.

How do you answer the questions, under this hypothesis that you yourself included in this thread?

Someone either a little smarter or simply a little quicker than you already tried to take my thread using the same premise.. (Do and try to keep up.) in the end their effort fail like yours, because he like you qualified my efforts on my thread as mine. as such they (my efforts or my thread) are not subject to Your rules. :p

In other words just because I ask a question does not mean I can not ask another or change what you only Perceive to be the purpose of this thread.

[The Grand Nudger]

And what Princess?

Really? All of this just to decide what sorts of gods you and I could imagine? I'm disappointed. In any case, after all the feedback - have you decided which kind of gods you're going to be imagining on a regular basis?

[ThomM]

All I'd have to do is find one of the many verses which say that God will spill his wrath upon the evil for their iniquity. The entire Old Testament is, well, a testament for the idea of a vengeful, wrathful God.

If you did, I'd ask if you thought we lived in OT times... If so do you have book chapter and verse to support your assertion. If not, then I would ask why you quoted an OT passage to describe a post atonement age?

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lol.....and?

And what Princess?

Ah - but - before or after the so called atonement is NONSENSE - because there was NOTHING to atone for. WE already know that the story of Adam and EVE was a fairy tale - as is the rest of the bible. THe christ has NO life outside of its pages - just as Harry Potter has no life outside of the fictional word as well.

But - if YOU want me to quote from your fairy tale book - then I choose 1 Timothy 2 - in which the christ myth says that women are essentially worthless - should be silent - and should not have any power over men - because of EVE"S sin. THey should be silent - submissive - and pregnant. A real god that created something would have known that the story of adam and eve is a fairy tale.

ANd as far as your claim about the OLD TESTAMENT - then I also call to Matthew 5:17 -= I did not come to abolish the old law - but to fullfill them.

So - the OLD laws still apply post the christ myth as well.

TOO bad none of this has any real meaning in the real world - since this is all MYTH and LEGEND.

[Drich]

Have you not heard the Good New?!?!

Christ died for your sins (He was Nailed on a Cross) and on the third Day Rose from the Gave, thus conquering Sin and Death!

If he died, then he couldn't rise from the grave. Because then he isn't dead anymore, so it's like he never really died. Which makes the whole cross thing kinda like pointless torture.

See, here's the deal. If he died, and stayed dead and was sent to hell for eternity to pay for my sins, I can see where you might call that a sacrifice. But he died, then was resurrected (alive again) and now sits in heaven at gods right hand. But he died for my sins which means he took on my sins (and those of all mankind) which means he is no longer righteous and, according to your bible, has no place in heaven.

That's not a sacrifice. That's a Broadway show.

Then you do not understand the nature of the sacrifice give to us by Christ on the Cross. Sacrifice does not mean Christ must subject Himself to your measure of the word. The obligation to be your sin sacrifice was full filled when a sinless man was beaten, bled, nailed to a cross and died. What makes it a sacrifice is that The Father saw it as a sin sacrifice. End of story. Why? Because it is by His standard do we stand with Him in Heaven or fall into Hell, and not your own.

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Exactly. What kind of sacrifice is it when Jesus rose from the dead to sit in Heaven, and eventually return to earth? And especially since Christians get to spend eternity with him when they die?

what else did it cost Him? I mean besides physical death, what did it cost Jesus to be our sin sacrifice? Surly you must know if you can sum up His whole experience by asking the question you started out with.

And again, why would such a sacrifice even be needed when God is supposedly the all-powerful creator of the universe? If he wanted to forgive everyone, he could just do it instead of coming up with this convoluted "I forgive you but only if you worship my son" nonsense.

If we can not understand or relate to the spiritual cost then how is it are we expected to grow or develop spiritually? It is like the difference between a child who grew up in the 1920 and 30's durning the Great Depression and one who grew up in the 80s and 90s. The kids who grew up when times were tough valued and understood money goods and even the intrinsic value of packaging those goods came in. Everything was recycled, everything we reused and repurposed.

The more modern kids who had been given everything have no sense of value or connection to the world around them. They would not know how to survive if the stores stop providing their parents food. They were and are entitled consumers who have been disconnected from any life style that does not demand that things be thrown away if and when they are no longer useful.

How does this relate? When we see what the cost of redemption is then we have an opportunity to connect to God because we would know or at least have some idea of the physical pain Christ was made to endure, ultimately ending in His Death. I am sure God did not need to go the broadway play for His own sake as He knew the cost. We are the ones who need to be entertained to learn and relate.

[Rev. Rye]

Why do bad things happen to good people? Why do children get cancer? Why do bad people always seem to thrive?

You know, you'd think it'd be a bigger problem when a loving, all-powerful, all-good being is in charge.