Why is belief in a higher power required?

[FallentoReason]

@ Godschild

http://www.evilbible.com/Rape.htm

It's pretty black and white: your god approves, and commands, killing and raping innocent people.

I've read the past few posts between you and Esquilax and I'm absolutely appauled by the fact that you even entertain the idea that somehow.. somehow all of this is remotely ok. You should seriously take a look at yourself, because your posts scream out "amoral".

You know nothing about scriptures

You'd be right in saying that about this particular subject. During my time as a Christian, not once did I hear these verses being talked about at church. I knew nothing of God's sickening acts against humanity.

and you use a biased interpretation instead of reading with an open mind

2 Samuel 12:11-14
Thus says the Lord: 'I will bring evil upon you out of your own house. I will take your wives [plural] while you live to see it, and will give them to your neighbor. He shall lie with your wives in broad daylight. You have done this deed in secret, but I will bring it about in the presence of all Israel, and with the sun looking down.'
Then David said to Nathan, "I have sinned against the Lord." Nathan answered David: "The Lord on his part has forgiven your sin: you shall not die. But since you have utterly spurned the Lord by this deed, the child born to you must surely die." [The child dies seven days later.]

A DIRECT command from your god to rape other people's wives.

Numbers 31
They attacked Midian just as the LORD had commanded Moses, and they killed all the men. All five of the Midianite kings – Evi, Rekem, Zur, Hur, and Reba – died in the battle. They also killed Balaam son of Beor with the sword. Then the Israelite army captured the Midianite women and children and seized their cattle and flocks and all their wealth as plunder. They burned all the towns and villages where the Midianites had lived. After they had gathered the plunder and captives, both people and animals, they brought them all to Moses and Eleazar the priest, and to the whole community of Israel, which was camped on the plains of Moab beside the Jordan River, across from Jericho.

A DIRECT command from your god to slay innocent people.

and determining for yourself what scriptures say, you allow these people to lead you around like a pig with a ring in his nose.

Are we reading the same book?? Your Holy Scriptures couldn't be more definitive on the evils God commands. There's *no* possible loopholes for interpretation when the LORD says... let me reiterate that... when the LORD speaks out to humanity and says "take their wives and sleep with them".

You need to prove to us that God commanded murder and rape and it would be refreshing to see a nonbeliever think for himself instead of parroting others.

Enough of your games! Explain right now how the killing, slavery and sleeping with people's wives is in any way justified. These atrocities are *in* your book, that's fact. But you know why you won't explain yourself? Because you have a two-fold problem:

(1) God allowed/commanded these things to happen. Naturally, there would be a damn good reason if that's the case, because we're talking about *God*. You haven't given Esquilax a single reason why the Word of God is filled with bloodshed, slavery and sexually immoral acts. This silence on your part leads me to think you're on this boat:

(2) If you so boldly believe God had *nothing* to do with these evils (despite some of these acts being brought about explicitly by him... your cognitive dissonance must be through the roof by the way) then that can only mean what we are reading is *literally* the word of man; stories of bloodshed and slavery purely dictated by man where no divine entity ever associated itself with said men.



Take your pick already. Either explain to us what's so good about genocide etc *OR* admit that the Bible contains non-supernaturally inspired content. Either choose to defend horrid acts against your fellow man *OR* admit what will undeniably be the beginning of the end for your beliefs; no god was associated in writing these "Holy" Scriptures.

It's a tough spot to be in, so I can see why you've been dancing around the issue in this thread post after post. But enough's enough. Take your pick.

[Godscreated]

You know nothing about scriptures and you use a biased interpretation .

Christian interpretation is biased.

How so?

[Silver]

How so?

How could it not be?

[Ryantology]

Christian interpretation is biased.

How so?

Your interpretation of the Bible differs in some important ways from, say, Waldorf's. Waldorf insists his interpretation is the true one. You say your interpretation is the true one. fr0d0 has his own. Wooters has his. ronedee, BettyG, and every single Christian in existence has a different version of what is true. Not a single one of you agrees on everything.

The problem isn't that Christian interpretation is biased, it's that there are 2.5 billion Christian interpretations and only through the sheer weight of numbers and dumb circumstance might any two of them coincide 100%. That's a terrific amount of variation for a message that is supposed to have a single, unifying truth.

The question is, why should we think that a single one of you is 'right'?

[Silver]

The problem isn't that Christian interpretation is biased

I would not go that far. It is biased to the extent that the theistic readers are interpreting the scripture to fit their beliefs rather than viewing it objectively and with the concept of it not being as infallible as they perceive it to be.

[Godscreated]

You know nothing about scriptures

You'd be right in saying that about this particular subject. During my time as a Christian, not once did I hear these verses being talked about at church. I knew nothing of God's sickening acts against humanity.

It's to bad they did not teach you about God's justice, then you would see that what happens when people disobey God, I know it sounds severe but, the omniscient God knows best.

and you use a biased interpretation instead of reading with an open mind

2 Samuel 12:11-14
Thus says the Lord: 'I will bring evil upon you out of your own house. I will take your wives [plural] while you live to see it, and will give them to your neighbor. He shall lie with your wives in broad daylight. You have done this deed in secret, but I will bring it about in the presence of all Israel, and with the sun looking down.'
Then David said to Nathan, "I have sinned against the Lord." Nathan answered David: "The Lord on his part has forgiven your sin: you shall not die. But since you have utterly spurned the Lord by this deed, the child born to you must surely die." [The child dies seven days later.]

A DIRECT command from your god to rape other people's wives.

So please show me the word rape in those scripture verses, I seemed to have missed it, or maybe it's hidden in the Hebrew or Greek, which I'm sure you can point out, right.
So how do you know that God did not allow these wives an eye for David's neighbor, and the neighbor for the wives, this would be a worse punishment, David's pride would be torn apart.

Numbers 31
They attacked Midian just as the LORD had commanded Moses, and they killed all the men. All five of the Midianite kings – Evi, Rekem, Zur, Hur, and Reba – died in the battle. They also killed Balaam son of Beor with the sword. Then the Israelite army captured the Midianite women and children and seized their cattle and flocks and all their wealth as plunder. They burned all the towns and villages where the Midianites had lived. After they had gathered the plunder and captives, both people and animals, they brought them all to Moses and Eleazar the priest, and to the whole community of Israel, which was camped on the plains of Moab beside the Jordan River, across from Jericho.

A DIRECT command from your god to slay innocent people.

Before I get into these verses I have a question for you specifically, why do you not object to other nations during that time of destroying cities and people in the same or even worse manner, you would call them great battles but never an atrocity. Never once have you mentioned such atrocities by other nations, why pick only on the Israelites? You call me biased.
Yes they attacked as God directed, but what makes you believe these people were innocent, do you have some historical records that call the Midianites the most innocent people, if so please share it with us? How about the five kings and Balaam son of Beor, do you have history on them no one is privy too?
Here's what happened go to numbers 25:16-18 and you will see that God said to Moses to destroy the Midianites, because through Balaam they lead Israel into Baal worship. So these innocent people you speak so highly of actually are guilty of trying to destroy Israel through the worship of the false god Baal of Peor. The five kings were leaders of Midianite tribes that wandered these lands near Caanan to find grass for their flocks of sheep and goats. The Israelites were to have killed all the people even the women and children, however the Israelite men disobeyed and Moses rebuked them. Moses allowed only the virgin women to survive.

and determining for yourself what scriptures say, you allow these people to lead you around like a pig with a ring in his nose.

Are we reading the same book?? Your Holy Scriptures couldn't be more definitive on the evils God commands. There's *no* possible loopholes for interpretation when the LORD says... let me reiterate that... when the LORD speaks out to humanity and says "take their wives and sleep with them".

Just where does it say that in the scripture verses you've given, I read them several times just to make sure I did not miss that quote you made, are you parroting again. You have not given any Biblical proof God is evil or even commanded evil, you have given only your thoughts and they do not match the verses you have given.

You need to prove to us that God commanded murder and rape and it would be refreshing to see a nonbeliever think for himself instead of parroting others.

Enough of your games! Explain right now how the killing, slavery and sleeping with people's wives is in any way justified. These atrocities are *in* your book, that's fact. But you know why you won't explain yourself? Because you have a two-fold problem:

I do not play games when it comes to God and His word, that is exactly what you practice and you've allowed others to form your opinions about what scripture says. You have nothing original but I understand that is how narrow minds work, they follow others without seeking out the truth.
"Right now," is that a demand from you, gracious calm down, don't work yourself into a frenzied state and have a heart attack.
When God calls for something to happen to people whither He directly does it or works through man to cause it, there is a judgement God issues against said person/s and the pronounced punishment. God does nothing arbitrarily, God is not a despotic tyrant.

(1) God allowed/commanded these things to happen. Naturally, there would be a damn good reason if that's the case, because we're talking about *God*. You haven't given Esquilax a single reason why the Word of God is filled with bloodshed, slavery and sexually immoral acts. This silence on your part leads me to think you're on this boat:

You mean you're beginning to see the light or did I misunderstand what you meant by "a good reason." What boat? The reason the Bible has bloodshed, slavery and sexually immoral act in it is because it's about God dealing with a sinful world. Tell me why is the world full of bloodshed, slavery that surpasses anytime in the past and sexually immoral acts, can you tell me why? I gave Esquilax all the reasons necessary for our conversation, actually I went as far as to reread the scriptures to make sure I had not forgotten things. Then showed him what actually took place.

(2) If you so boldly believe God had *nothing* to do with these evils (despite some of these acts being brought about explicitly by him... your cognitive dissonance must be through the roof by the way) then that can only mean what we are reading is *literally* the word of man; stories of bloodshed and slavery purely dictated by man where no divine entity ever associated itself with said men.

Oh we are reading the word of God and God did command punishment upon people after His judgement upon them, how many times must I say that, I mean really can't you understand. God does no evil and if you see that He does then that's on you. I can take most of scripture literally (some is parables and prophecy) and see the loving God of creation, why you can't is not a mystery to me I understand, it's within scripture.

Take your pick already. Either explain to us what's so good about genocide etc *OR* admit that the Bible contains non-supernaturally inspired content. Either choose to defend horrid acts against your fellow man *OR* admit what will undeniably be the beginning of the end for your beliefs; no god was associated in writing these "Holy" Scriptures.

It's a tough spot to be in, so I can see why you've been dancing around the issue in this thread post after post. But enough's enough. Take your pick.

Here you go again demanding I do something, you want to guide me into admitting your right and I'm wrong. Well, guess what I'm not a pig with a ring in my nose to be guided around by you or any other human. My guidance comes from the loving hand of God. You and Esquilax refuse to read scripture and try with an open mind to understand it, I know it is hard, even difficult at times and sometimes it takes years of study to find answers to questions, they are there though. God's proven Himself to me numerous times, so when I find a subject difficult to understand I trust in Him, in time He will answer, in His perfect timing, but like I said until then He's got my respect and I'll trust Him.

I have God and Heaven's Army on my side, so your threats are meaningless, God reigns on high, praise Him forever.

---

How so?

Your interpretation of the Bible differs in some important ways from, say, Waldorf's. Waldorf insists his interpretation is the true one. You say your interpretation is the true one. fr0d0 has his own. Wooters has his. ronedee, BettyG, and every single Christian in existence has a different version of what is true. Not a single one of you agrees on everything.

The problem isn't that Christian interpretation is biased, it's that there are 2.5 billion Christian interpretations and only through the sheer weight of numbers and dumb circumstance might any two of them coincide 100%. That's a terrific amount of variation for a message that is supposed to have a single, unifying truth.

The question is, why should we think that a single one of you is 'right'?

There is one unifying truth among all of use, God is the creator who gave His son Jesus Christ to be our hope in salvation, and we all except this. Christ died for our sins, to redeem us to the Father to live eternally with the One we choose, yes we choose Him freely to become slaves to an almighty God who loved us enough to give His son as the atonement for our sin, something we are incapable of doing, He freed us to LIVE and all of us believe this and are unified in this.
The rest, well are what we as individuals see, and everyone of us are wrong about some of it, that's our human nature. We will find out one day and as Chad said, we'll probably be laughing at how wrong we were about some things.

[Ryantology]

You know nothing about scriptures

You interpret scripture so that it reflects your personal viewpoints. I can only assume this is because you like rape.

It's to bad they did not teach you about God's justice, then you would see that what happens when people disobey God, I know it sounds severe but, the omniscient God knows best.

You can be omniscient and still be malicious. As God obviously is.

and you use a biased interpretation instead of reading with an open mind

You're saying that your interpretation of the Bible is 100% accurate? Prove it.

So please show me the word rape in those scripture verses, I seemed to have missed it, or maybe it's hidden in the Hebrew or Greek, which I'm sure you can point out, right.

" I will take your wives [plural] while you live to see it, and will give them to your neighbor."

As the wives are obviously not going to consent, this is rape by any definition. You're seriously arguing that it's not rape if the word 'rape' isn't in there. That is how weak your justification is.

So, we've established that Godschild thinks rape is okay (as long as you don't use the word, of course). Let's see where this goes.

Numbers 31
They attacked Midian just as the LORD had commanded Moses, and they killed all the men. All five of the Midianite kings – Evi, Rekem, Zur, Hur, and Reba – died in the battle. They also killed Balaam son of Beor with the sword. Then the Israelite army captured the Midianite women and children and seized their cattle and flocks and all their wealth as plunder. They burned all the towns and villages where the Midianites had lived. After they had gathered the plunder and captives, both people and animals, they brought them all to Moses and Eleazar the priest, and to the whole community of Israel, which was camped on the plains of Moab beside the Jordan River, across from Jericho.

A DIRECT command from your god to slay innocent people.

Before I get into these verses I have a question for you specifically, why do you not object to other nations during that time of destroying cities and people in the same or even worse manner, you would call them great battles but never an atrocity. Never once have you mentioned such atrocities by other nations, why pick only on the Israelites? You call me biased.

The subject doesn't come up because it's not relevant. Those other nations are not perfect and omni-good. The fact that you have to compare your God to imperfect humans is proof that you can't justify calling him perfect.

But, since you brought it up, those other nations were committing atrocities against each other all the time, and none of us would say that is good.

Yes they attacked as God directed, but what makes you believe these people were innocent, do you have some historical records that call the Midianites the most innocent people, if so please share it with us? How about the five kings and Balaam son of Beor, do you have history on them no one is privy too?

I'm quite sure I speak for every atheist on this forum when I say that individuals commit crimes and should be judged as individuals. To judge an entire nation for the crimes of a few and sentence them all to death is murder.

Just where does it say that in the scripture verses you've given, I read them several times just to make sure I did not miss that quote you made, are you parroting again. You have not given any Biblical proof God is evil or even commanded evil, you have given only your thoughts and they do not match the verses you have given.

The Bible, obviously, never calls these actions evil, because the Bible is a biased source. Judging God's actions without Biblical bias reveals just another murderous tyrant in a world full of them.

I do not play games when it comes to God and His word, that is exactly what you practice and you've allowed others to form your opinions about what scripture says. You have nothing original but I understand that is how narrow minds work, they follow others without seeking out the truth.

Prove that your interpretation of scripture is the only correct one.

When God calls for something to happen to people whither He directly does it or works through man to cause it, there is a judgement God issues against said person/s and the pronounced punishment. God does nothing arbitrarily, God is not a despotic tyrant.

As God does not justify most of the rules he makes, nor does he follow any of them himself, nor do a great many of them serve any purpose whatsoever, his rules are the very definition of arbitrary.

Oh we are reading the word of God and God did command punishment upon people after His judgement upon them, how many times must I say that, I mean really can't you understand. God does no evil and if you see that He does then that's on you. I can take most of scripture literally (some is parables and prophecy) and see the loving God of creation, why you can't is not a mystery to me I understand, it's within scripture.

You're right, it's upon us to see the evil of your God and point it out to you. You are blind to it.

Here you go again demanding I do something, you want to guide me into admitting your right and I'm wrong. Well, guess what I'm not a pig with a ring in my nose to be guided around by you or any other human. My guidance comes from the loving hand of God. You and Esquilax refuse to read scripture and try with an open mind to understand it, I know it is hard, even difficult at times and sometimes it takes years of study to find answers to questions, they are there though. God's proven Himself to me numerous times, so when I find a subject difficult to understand I trust in Him, in time He will answer, in His perfect timing, but like I said until then He's got my respect and I'll trust Him.

And here you go again, going off on a slavering rant about stupid nonsense so you can avoid addressing the concerns we have with the inconsistency of your scripture with reality.

I have God and Heaven's Army on my side, so your threats are meaningless, God reigns on high, praise Him forever.

---

It's to bad they did not teach you about God's justice, then you would see that what happens when people disobey God, I know it sounds severe but, the omniscient God knows best.

Knowing everything doesn't mean one will do the best thing.

and you use a biased interpretation instead of reading with an open mind

So, you are saying that your interpretation is 100% accurate? Prove it.

So please show me the word rape in those scripture verses, I seemed to have missed it, or maybe it's hidden in the Hebrew or Greek, which I'm sure you can point out, right.

" I will take your wives [plural] while you live to see it, and will give them to your neighbor."

As the wives are obviously not going to consent, this is rape by any definition. You're seriously arguing that it's not rape if the word 'rape' isn't in there. That is how weak your justification is.

So, we've established that Godschild thinks rape is okay (as long as you don't use the word, of course). Let's see where this goes.

Before I get into these verses I have a question for you specifically, why do you not object to other nations during that time of destroying cities and people in the same or even worse manner, you would call them great battles but never an atrocity. Never once have you mentioned such atrocities by other nations, why pick only on the Israelites? You call me biased.

The subject doesn't come up because it's not relevant. Those other nations are not perfect and omni-good. The fact that you have to compare your God to imperfect humans is proof that you can't justify calling him perfect.

But, since you brought it up, those other nations were committing atrocities against each other all the time, and none of us would say that is good.

Yes they attacked as God directed, but what makes you believe these people were innocent, do you have some historical records that call the Midianites the most innocent people, if so please share it with us? How about the five kings and Balaam son of Beor, do you have history on them no one is privy too?

I'm quite sure I speak for every atheist on this forum when I say that individuals commit crimes and should be judged as individuals. To judge an entire nation for the crimes of a few and sentence them all to death is murder.

Just where does it say that in the scripture verses you've given, I read them several times just to make sure I did not miss that quote you made, are you parroting again. You have not given any Biblical proof God is evil or even commanded evil, you have given only your thoughts and they do not match the verses you have given.

The Bible, obviously, never calls these actions evil, because the Bible is a biased source. Judging God's actions without Biblical bias reveals just another murderous tyrant in a world full of them.

I do not play games when it comes to God and His word, that is exactly what you practice and you've allowed others to form your opinions about what scripture says. You have nothing original but I understand that is how narrow minds work, they follow others without seeking out the truth.

Prove that your interpretation of scripture is the only correct one.

When God calls for something to happen to people whither He directly does it or works through man to cause it, there is a judgement God issues against said person/s and the pronounced punishment. God does nothing arbitrarily, God is not a despotic tyrant.

As God does not justify most of the rules he makes, nor does he follow any of them himself, nor do a great many of them serve any purpose whatsoever, his rules are the very definition of arbitrary.

Oh we are reading the word of God and God did command punishment upon people after His judgement upon them, how many times must I say that, I mean really can't you understand. God does no evil and if you see that He does then that's on you. I can take most of scripture literally (some is parables and prophecy) and see the loving God of creation, why you can't is not a mystery to me I understand, it's within scripture.

You're right, it's upon us to see the evil of your God and point it out to you. You are blind to it.

Here you go again demanding I do something, you want to guide me into admitting your right and I'm wrong. Well, guess what I'm not a pig with a ring in my nose to be guided around by you or any other human. My guidance comes from the loving hand of God. You and Esquilax refuse to read scripture and try with an open mind to understand it, I know it is hard, even difficult at times and sometimes it takes years of study to find answers to questions, they are there though. God's proven Himself to me numerous times, so when I find a subject difficult to understand I trust in Him, in time He will answer, in His perfect timing, but like I said until then He's got my respect and I'll trust Him.

And here you go again, going off on a slavering rant about stupid nonsense so you can avoid addressing the concerns we have with the inconsistency of your scripture with reality.

I have God and Heaven's Army on my side, so your threats are meaningless, God reigns on high, praise Him forever.

[Esquilax]

No they're not the same thing, if I cut down a tree and it falls on and kills a man I certainly did not murder him, my actions caused his death so I killed him but I did not murder him.

True, but that's still manslaughter, and you still get punished for it.

Thank you, and no above I explained the difference in killing and murder. So you do not think you may have misread other things or should I say you haven't the whole of the story.

I'll get into this in more detail further down, but what I will say is that I probably wasn't phrasing my question right. I should have asked why what happened is killing, and not murder. Happily, you answered that, though I'm afraid we still disagree.

Killing is not always okay, murder is never okay. Killing for the most part is a bad action, it usually brings sadness to someone. When a war breaks out killing becomes a necessary tragedy, that does not make it murder in all cases, self defense in taking a life is killing but, it's not murder. I've not said the killing in those verses was good nor did I say it was bad, what I will say it was just because it served a purpose that proved what God had promised His people the Israelites.

I submit to you that all loss of life, god sanctioned or not, is wrong, and immoral by definition.

You equate death with injustice in these verses without the understanding of the whole situation and in this case part of this situation goes back to Moses time.

I equate death with injustice, period. Unless there was a clear and immediate danger being posed by those infants and virgin women, there can be no justification for their death, whether or not god ordered it. There can be no context in which an utterly immoral act becomes okay; it's you guys that so often argue for moral absolutes, after all. If you wouldn't accept this as moral from a mere human, but would if it serves god's purposes, then it's hardly objective, is it?

You can not solve a math problem without all the necessary information and I'm saying you have neglected to gather all the information that's available to this situation, so you can not possibly give a correct verdict to those verses. Like I told you I went back and read the story and found that I had forgotten part of it, nothing that would change my stance though. You on the other hand do not even know why this all got started, it was a promise from God to His people, Moses warned them yet they insisted on taking an oath.

I don't care. That's the thing. Whether they caused god trouble or not, their children couldn't possibly have been involved in that, nor could there have been any action they could have taken that was worthy of execution. It's the same reason we don't jail the tax evader's children.

Your position here seriously seems to be that they got in the way of god, and therefore every last one of them was deserving of death. That's not moral, that's just following dear leader no matter what. It's sociopathy dressed up as righteousness.

I think I've pretty well have distinguished between the two, however in the case of these verses I say again it was just to God's purpose.

So you follow divine command theory? There are no moral absolutes, whatever suits god's purposes is permitted, no matter what? If god ordered you to do the same thing, would you? Could you? We disagree quite a lot, but I don't think you're an evil person, GC. I don't think you would.

God never lets anyone off the hook as you put it, all sin is payed for, either through Christ or, for those who reject Christ through their own selves. You're right you could be a killer, worse than anyone ever and still be forgiven, but only through Christ, there is no other way. If you would not chose Christ as your savior then you would be paying for your sins. I do not pretend the Bible actually solves the problem of atonement, Christ did that, scripture records for us what He did for us, and if that's a loophole I'll take it,why, because God made the loophole for me to have in my favor, praise God on high.

That is... actually a surprisingly honest answer, and one I can respect. I wish you'd said it first off, instead of representing it all as something properly moral, but I can get behind the admission.

In this case you are being intellectually dishonest because you have cherry picked a few verses out of an entire story, and as I said part of the story Goes back to Moses time. I said that the destruction of the town and it's people was just and it served God's purpose through a promise, so in that sense it was good, though I'm sure you will never see it.

There is no sense in which genocide becomes moral. Look, I know you're okay with it, but don't go telling me that the only reason I'm not okay with it too is because I don't know the whole story. That's incorrect; I could have been there personally, and still seen no justification for it. Being god doesn't give one a pass on basic morality, unless the context was that the people killed in his name were building a superweapon to wipe all life from the face of the earth and strike out at him personally, and they were minutes away from pulling the trigger.

You are the one who keeps harping on sex, sex here, sex there, sex everywhere it seems that's all you can think about,

I don't find anything shameful about admitting I like sex, yes.

I was beginning to think you wished you could have been one of the 600.

Oh no no: I'm very serious about consent.

Of coarse sex was engaged in to have babies, Israel was trying to help the family of Benjamin to survive, but not in a way that you claim, murder and rape were not a part of this.

So did the virgins consent? Because if they didn't, then it's rape.

They did not have to be raped, the only reason you say this is because you hate God and desire to twist His word into something it's not.

No, I say it because I live in reality, where words and actions mean things and those things aren't contingent on whether the cause is mundane or divine. I don't hate your god, because I don't think he exists. I also don't hate Voldemort, for that matter. But the fact remains, if consent was not given by these prisoners of war, then they were raped. I'm sorry it makes you uncomfortable, but that's the inescapable reality of things.

Binary choice, you sound like you want to be a god and dictate the only choices these people had. Well you got it all wrong, you do not even know who this women were, they were Israelite women, they were not marrying outside their nationality, just as God had commanded long ago.

Um, what? Why does it matter what nationality they were?

They could have very well known some of these men, we do not know for sure, but it's not like they live a hundred miles away.

I thought it wasn't good to make assumptions that aren't present in the text? Besides, I know my friends, that doesn't mean I want to marry them, nor that me being forced to is okay. This isn't an excuse.

Yes that's right the men, women and children that were killed were Israelites, surprised? Do you know why one Israelite town was attacked by the rest of the nation, let's just say they let down the rest of Israel and payed the price and through all this God's judgement came upon the nation. Do you even know how all this got started, it all came about because of rape and murder, yep that's right some men of Benjamin raped and murdered and the tribe would not give up the ones who did this terrible thing. So it started with Israel taking action against Benjamin, it cost Israel dearly but, it cost Benjamin almost everything. I have a suggestion go read the entire story and then find God's promise to the nation during Moses time, you'll have the whole of the story then, even if you do reject it.

So, they refused to give up the criminals, yes, we agree that that's wrong. And the children of the town were responsible for this because...?

I doubt they were even involved in the decision making process.

I do not worship a religion, I worship the triune God, the Father, the Christ and the Holy Spirit, and He is completely just and moral.

How do you know you got the right version of his words? There's more than one. Truth is, without getting confirmation from the big guy himself, every last one of you is just worshiping a religious interpretation of things he's said and done.

[FallentoReason]

You know nothing about scriptures

You'd be right in saying that about this particular subject. During my time as a Christian, not once did I hear these verses being talked about at church. I knew nothing of God's sickening acts against humanity.

It's to bad they did not teach you about God's justice, then you would see that what happens when people disobey God, I know it sounds severe but, the omniscient God knows best.

Why is death the penalty for disobedience? Would you prefer that governments brought back the death sentence if you're so accepting of the concept?

So please show me the word rape in those scripture verses, I seemed to have missed it, or maybe it's hidden in the Hebrew or Greek, which I'm sure you can point out, right.

"Thus says the Lord...He shall lie with your wives in broad daylight."

You're making this harder than what it is.

So how do you know that God did not allow these wives an eye for David's neighbor, and the neighbor for the wives, this would be a worse punishment, David's pride would be torn apart.

I'm not quite following here. What do you mean allow these wives an eye?

Before I get into these verses I have a question for you specifically, why do you not object to other nations during that time of destroying cities and people in the same or even worse manner, you would call them great battles but never an atrocity. Never once have you mentioned such atrocities by other nations, why pick only on the Israelites? You call me biased.

I never said other battles weren't atrocities. You're putting words in my mouth.

I'm focusing on this tribe because it's the one that your particular religion defends. If your religion had sprung out of the Nazis, then we'd be discussing Hitler's actions... simple as that.

Yes they attacked as God directed, but what makes you believe these people were innocent, do you have some historical records that call the Midianites the most innocent people, if so please share it with us? How about the five kings and Balaam son of Beor, do you have history on them no one is privy too?

Because a handful of men were naughty, you think it's ok to massacre the rest of the men and their children in that city/town who had nothing to do with it?

Here's what happened go to numbers 25:16-18 and you will see that God said to Moses to destroy the Midianites, because through Balaam they lead Israel into Baal worship. So these innocent people you speak so highly of actually are guilty of trying to destroy Israel through the worship of the false god Baal of Peor. The five kings were leaders of Midianite tribes that wandered these lands near Caanan to find grass for their flocks of sheep and goats. The Israelites were to have killed all the people even the women and children, however the Israelite men disobeyed and Moses rebuked them. Moses allowed only the virgin women to survive.

Oh, so a disagreement of god worship justifies killing innocent children?

Just where does it say that in the scripture verses you've given, I read them several times just to make sure I did not miss that quote you made, are you parroting again. You have not given any Biblical proof God is evil or even commanded evil, you have given only your thoughts and they do not match the verses you have given.

Enough's enough GC... I've explicitly shown you where God directly commands these evils. Stop avoiding the cold, hard facts.

You need to prove to us that God commanded murder and rape and it would be refreshing to see a nonbeliever think for himself instead of parroting others.

Enough of your games! Explain right now how the killing, slavery and sleeping with people's wives is in any way justified. These atrocities are *in* your book, that's fact. But you know why you won't explain yourself? Because you have a two-fold problem:

When God calls for something to happen to people whither He directly does it or works through man to cause it, there is a judgement God issues against said person/s and the pronounced punishment. God does nothing arbitrarily, God is not a despotic tyrant.

Why do innocent children get dragged into these punishments?

You mean you're beginning to see the light or did I misunderstand what you meant by "a good reason."

Philosophically speaking, a morally perfect being would naturally have a good reason for allowing/commanding immoral acts. I'm still waiting to hear these reasons that presumably let you sleep at night knowing the OT is perfectly moral and just.

The reason the Bible has bloodshed, slavery and sexually immoral act in it is because it's about God dealing with a sinful world.

So... he commands men to do sinful acts against a sinful world i.e. fights sin with sin?!

Tell me why is the world full of bloodshed, slavery that surpasses anytime in the past and sexually immoral acts, can you tell me why?

Because humanity is like any other creature in the animal kingdom; ruthless.

Oh we are reading the word of God and God did command punishment upon people after His judgement upon them, how many times must I say that, I mean really can't you understand.

Sure, he's punishing people. Remind me what innocent children and married women did wrong again to receive death/sex with another man?

God does no evil and if you see that He does then that's on you. I can take most of scripture literally (some is parables and prophecy) and see the loving God of creation, why you can't is not a mystery to me I understand, it's within scripture.

I don't deny that there's acts of love here and there, but you try and make it seem like he's 100% good. I'm sorry, but in *no possible world* is killing children and passing off wives as objects a loving thing to do. How that's not evil is truly beyond me since it's a basic instinct that tells me it's most likely wrong.

Here you go again demanding I do something, you want to guide me into admitting your right and I'm wrong. Well, guess what I'm not a pig with a ring in my nose to be guided around by you or any other human. My guidance comes from the loving hand of God. You and Esquilax refuse to read scripture and try with an open mind to understand it, I know it is hard, even difficult at times and sometimes it takes years of study to find answers to questions, they are there though. God's proven Himself to me numerous times, so when I find a subject difficult to understand I trust in Him, in time He will answer, in His perfect timing, but like I said until then He's got my respect and I'll trust Him.

I have God and Heaven's Army on my side, so your threats are meaningless, God reigns on high, praise Him forever.

I can't speak for everyone here, but being a Free Thinker I make it my #1 priority to freely think; I'm willing to consider what you have to say, but so far you *haven't* given me a single reason why it's fine to kill innocent people and treat women in a degrading manner. I'm all ears... so how about you *actually* begin with your apologetics already...

[max-greece]

Christian interpretation is biased.

How so?

You start with the premise - God is good. In that light anything you read of his actions are excused. In this thread we have examples of atrocities committed either in his name or on his direct order. For each you question whether it is actually an atrocity, what others were doing elsewhere in the world at that time and how we know the victims didn't somehow deserve their fate.

If you were to read the Bible with no opinion as to whether God is good or not you might reach some very different conclusions. It would allow you to read the accounts as you might any other account of a crime being committed. Interestingly I very much doubt the mass murder of children (or anyone) would cause you to ask if they didn't deserve it somehow in ANY other case except that of the Bible.

All the time you appear to be utterly convinced you are right. That it doesn't strike you that others are equally convinced that they are right, but following a different path and therefore must be wrong according to you doesn't seem to register at all.

If they are wrong - and you are certain of that - how can you be so certain you are not also wrong.

Take 9/11 for example. Those 16 men were utterly convinced that they were doing the right thing and that Allah would reward them in the afterlife. When I say utterly convinced - enough to give up their lives for. There can be no doubt that they believed in what they were doing 100%. Equally there can be no doubt that they were 100% in the wrong.

Such strength of faith enabled the atrocities of history to be done. Your religion is not better than Islam in this respect - maybe just a little older and less impetuous these days but historically.....wow.

Just suppose you are wrong. Now look at history from Biblical times forwards. How horrific has Judeo-Christianity been? I mean without the blinkers of faith.

That's how we see it. Shocking huh.