Lighter Skin = Better?

[Anomalocaris]

BTW, It is hard to argue the Europeans were more murderous than other races. When confronted with the opportunity and means to kill someone to gain one's own ends, hardly can it be argued that other race would have dived into it with any less relish and lust than Europeans.

Case in point, I've been reading "The Disappearing Spoon" and there's a very interesting passage about the genocide going on that was aided by European money solely by the fact that Europeans were buying minerals that the Congo had, and the Congo residents, instead of using that money to build their communities in a positive light, used it to purchase weapons and commit further atrocities in the name of tribal warfare.

People lack only the means, not the motive.

---

Indeed, in 1994, non-european rowandans killed, mostly with machetes, a million of their fellow non-european countrymen in just 100 days, during the rowandans genocide. Nazis, armed with modern industrial technology and organization, never equalled this rate of body count accumulation even at the very height of holocaust. Murderous degenerates?

[thesummerqueen]

But my point, Mehm, is that civilized societies don't murder women for adultery, don't chop off hands for stealing, don't shoot political prisoners in the head on TV or throw acid in girls' faces for trying to learn, don't forbid their women to drive or buy cucumbers, don't fly planes into buildings, etc.

It's not that I consider America much better in its behavior - maybe a few degrees up the scale - but I can't consider them a civilized society while those things exist.

Just because they have beautiful buildings and a cosmopolitan atmosphere doesn't make them "civilized" any more than I would have considered the Romans to be a civilized folk after seeing a gladiator match.

In fact, it's really only the Swedes that embody a first world civilized society in my mind.

[kılıç_mehmet]

But my point, Mehm, is that civilized societies don't murder women for adultery, don't chop off hands for stealing, don't shoot political prisoners in the head on TV or throw acid in girls' faces for trying to learn, don't forbid their women to drive or buy cucumbers, don't fly planes into buildings, etc.

It's not that I consider America much better in its behavior - maybe a few degrees up the scale - but I can't consider them a civilized society while those things exist.

Just because they have beautiful buildings and a cosmopolitan atmosphere doesn't make them "civilized" any more than I would have considered the Romans to be a civilized folk after seeing a gladiator match.

In fact, it's really only the Swedes that embody a first world civilized society in my mind.

I guess "being civilized" is a matter of how you look at it, I'd say. I'm not one to play the devils advocate, however I think that arab countries, except for those who have been plagued by war and strife in the past, are quite civil. The fact that the women in Saudi Arabia can't drive cars doesn't really change the fact that they're simply many steps above Iraq, where women can legally drive cars. They have consistent peaceful lives, and they enjoy high living standards. What else is there to be said?

[thesummerqueen]

Fair treatment of the sexes? Fair treatment of non-muslims?

[kılıç_mehmet]

Fair treatment of the sexes? Fair treatment of non-muslims?

In Saudi Arabia? Indeed, why else would they go to work there?
I guess that now a multitude of non-moslem, foreign nationals work there. Unless you really are that stupid to offend the customs and laws of a country that you work in, I'd say Saudi Arabia is one of the safest places to be for any person. You don't even have to associate with most of the populace if you don't want to.
As for women...Well, I guess the people there mostl accepted the way life is there. I mean it's mostly related to the Wahabi way of life, but in truth, despite being segregated from men, they still enjoy a higher life standard than you me or anyone in this forum.
They own cars that they can't legally drive in Saudi Arabia. Other than that, I cannot really answer in the name of the women there, since I haven't talked to any women from Saudi Arabia, but I don't think it's as bad as people would speak of it.
Yes, in terms of culture, they're mostly...different from us, and our women aswell, who are considered equal with men in matters of law and social status, but in truth, most really accept it the way it is, and play by the rules.

[thesummerqueen]

On the other hand, you also have established on this forum that you have rather misogynistic views on how women should behave, so this is, perhaps, as you say, a 'matter of perspective.'

[kılıç_mehmet]

On the other hand, you also have established on this forum that you have rather misogynistic views on how women should behave, so this is, perhaps, as you say, a 'matter of perspective.'

I really don't, though I'd like to know why you think that.
I do not judge people by their sex, I judge them by their culture. And in their culture, the role of men and women are different from the roles that they have in our society. For good or bad, whether I agree with it or not, its a fact of life over there, and neither I, nor you can change that fact.
With this being said, what else is there to discuss?

[thesummerqueen]

And in their culture, there are women who would like to have the same power and equality as a man - that's not wrong, nor is there anything wrong with change in their culture. Culture is a fluid thing - not something to sit stagnant.

And I think that because of many discussions which you have participated in, and which I do not presently have the time to seek out with our search function, where you have said women should act a certain way according to your values.

[kılıç_mehmet]

And in their culture, there are women who would like to have the same power and equality as a man - that's not wrong, nor is there anything wrong with change in their culture. Culture is a fluid thing - not something to sit stagnant.

And I think that because of many discussions which you have participated in, and which I do not presently have the time to seek out with our search function, where you have said women should act a certain way according to your values.

According to us they should, perhaps.
You've made some good remarks about culture, indeed. But I also should state that "Saudi Arabia" has generally been quite isolated from the outside world in terms of cultural exchange. Yes indeed, many pilgrims find their way to Mecca and Medina every year, yet do come there with their religious identities, not cultural identities. They still have the same tribal associations that they probably had hundreds of years ago, and many ancient customs still prevail. Obviously, you cannot expect these people to change overnight. I don't think that even Saudi women would comply with these, even if the men did.

And yes, I have said that women ought to act in certain ways according to our values. Yet I have not really excluded myself from acting according to our values. And furthermore, I never expected anyone who does not share our values to act according to it.
I simply expect those who do believe in these values ought to.

However that should not mean that I do not encourage the values I believe in, although I haven't really explained what I really hold dear as values, have I not?
I assure you it doesn't involve forbidding women to drive cars, work or take part in active social life. However we have a social, moral code that is tied to the spirit of our nation, which I believe, should be the foundation of our public life. I have my reasons to state this, as I believe that it's also quite essential for us to exist as a people, that we should follow and protect these values.

[Rahul]

Back in the 90's a US Navy shipped stopped over in a port in Saudi.

Some squid got really drunk, walked into some rich house, and pissed on the front room carpet.

They dragged him out back and chopped his head off. Nothing happened to the guys that did it. It was all ok.

Think you can do that here in America and nothing will happen to you?