Why I Am Pro-Life

[fr0d0]

The subject with me is human life, and not 'well-being', 'personhood', 'sentience' or anything else off topic.

I didn't say that it's unethical. I said that it's an ethical question that must be addressed. What you're arguing against with me, is that this isn't a human life. That is all.

"No one is hurt" ... plea to emotion
"What is wrong with preventing someone existing" ... did you really say that??
"Frozen embryos" ... an ethical problem
"Fertility tests on embryos" ... an ethical problem
"IVF" ... an ethical problem
"Unethical to terminate a human being's existence" ... an ethical problem

[bladevalant546]

Yes - because it is only the woman's fault if they do not use contraception. Men are constantly begging them to allow them to use a condom, but they always refuse.

Idiot.

But of course, it's only wrong for women to have unprotected sex. Men can do what they want because, you know, penises. Only women have to be punished and have our lives ruined as a punishment, silly.

Let us breathe a little bit, I think throwing around misogyny word a little loosely will not help. I think sex education should be a priority, I also think it is both parties responsible. I used to be strict pro-life, now I am pro-choice (not pro-abortion, as I view it as primitive and we need a better way). I think we need to gain perspective here and not be fuel by propaganda that feeds emotions. Let us use logic. My girlfriend whom is prochoice believe in regulations regarding it. She herself thinks there should be a cut off (20weeks). With that said she opened my eyes that a women should not pay for the fetus by the financial burden.

I think right now we are incapable of logical thought and debate. This debate is more complicated than people will admit. I think we need to really honestly learn to listen to one another and really strive for true equality.

[pineapplebunnybounce]

how many times do i have to say i do not deny it's a human life? how many times do i have to say that i will own up that it's a human life at conception, but i don't think it's an ethical issue to prevent it from becoming a baby? Yes, fr0d0, i really said that, perhaps you want to outline why it's an ethical issue, because the only case you've made so far is that it's unique. which is not a qualifier for anything.

[orogenicman]

So you are claiming a vast consensus of scientists are behind your opinion? You've done the actual survey, not just relied on a parochial school textbook from 1961, right?

I quoted my sources. go looksee.

You listed a small collection of alleged textbooks. You quoted nothing. The fact remains that until a fetus is viable outside the womb, you cannot call it anything other than a collection of cells, often subject to spontaneous abortion (otherwise known as miscarriage). The fact remains that the majority of those who call themselves pro-life, aren't. They are anti-womens' rights.

[fr0d0]

Lets try and move on then pineapple. Man I thought we'd done that posts ago!

It's a unique human, it's blueprint sealed at conception. It is no different in it's life than any other human life... you and me. If it's ethically wrong to take post birth human life, what makes it ethically neutral pre birth?

What makes us value human life seems to be your question, which I think surpasses the scope of this discussion. That much we already accept. It might be egotistical. Biologically rooted as part of our special drive to procreate. Whatever the reason, humans concur that human life is important. We have laws to reflect that. Do you want to expand the discussion to include sentient humans? Why not? What are your reasons to suppose taking any human life isn't an ethical question?

---

The fact remains that the majority of those who call themselves pro-life, aren't. They are anti-womens' rights.

Go talk to someone making that point then OM.

[catfish]

But I have a bit of a problem when then want to terminate someone's life because they were irresponsible enough to not use contraception.

Fuck you, you misogynistic shit cunt. How fucking dare you think so little of women. Remember a woman gave you life you little shit. Just because we have sex and occasionally fuck it up, you think that's a crime that should carry a fucking life sentence? Murderers get less fucking punishment than you believe women deserve for having unprotexted sex. What the fuck is wrong with you?

You're the one who seems to have no qualms about terminating a human life. What the fuck is wrong with you?

---

Around and around the argument goes...

Where it stops, only atheismo knows!

Human life processes begin at the moment of contraception, as biological studies agree.

<snip>

Now, let's see if anyone can answer my points maturely and with a level head.

Absolutely zero biological studies are going to agree with your statement (bolded by me above).

[pineapplebunnybounce]

Lets try and move on then pineapple. Man I thought we'd done that posts ago!

It's a unique human, it's blueprint sealed at conception. It is no different in it's life than any other human life... you and me. If it's ethically wrong to take post birth human life, what makes it ethically neutral pre birth?

the suffering.

What makes us value human life seems to be your question, which I think surpasses the scope of this discussion. That much we already accept. It might be egotistical. Biologically rooted as part of our special drive to procreate. Whatever the reason, humans concur that human life is important. We have laws to reflect that. Do you want to expand the discussion to include sentient humans? Why not? What are your reasons to suppose taking any human life isn't an ethical question?

Why do you keep bringing this back to murder? I did not carry on in my animal analogy that I started at the beginning of this thread, I'll do so now. I don't know how in touch you are with experimenting on animals, but here's how it works, we don't use higher mammals if we can use lower mammals. Even though using higher mammals will give us better results because they more closely resemble humans. No one cares when they slam a newspaper on a fly, but a lot of us here would be disgusted if someone killed a dog. We have different value judgements for different lifeforms, and the reason is because higher mammals suffer more, they have more emotions, and so we have more sympathy for them. That is what humans value, not because you call it life, not because you call it human, we value things that resemble ourselves, and we value things that benefit us.

Murder is wrong because it involves human suffering. Abortion does not involve human suffering. You can pretend like we treat all lives the same way, the thing is we do not.

You keep saying that a human life is special, but you might want to acknowledge that the law allows abortion, which you think is human life, and is not a point I think worth contesting. and so far the only way you've tried to demonstrate why it's special is to say that oh you wouldn't kill a full grown human being, that's the value I assign to a sentient being. If you really can assign value to an embryo, tell me what value to assign to it, besides it's potential, which I'm very aware of.

If potential is the only thing you are worried about, you have to go against contraceptions. if you think this sounds like a prochoice argument that is designed to make your position sound ridiculous, it really isn't. If you want to talk about potential, how far back are you willing to go?

Say stem cells. If a bunch of embryos can cure alzheimer's and give someone their life back, i wouldn't blink to say it's ok. Same thing for kidney diseases, heart diseases and so on. Do I care about human life? It depends on what you're comparing it to, to an animal, yes (i would save a dog over an embryo, don't get me wrong, an embryo really holds no value to me, here again, i'm talking about a human being capable of suffering). Now we're talking about a human life vs another human life. One that cannot feel, barely exists, whose death causes no pain, and another who feels just as much as you and i, and i'll value the mother over a bunch of cells. If abortion doesn't cause anyone suffering, but take away the mother's suffering, I don't see the ethical issue.

For the record, i don't think embryos dying is an ethical issue at all, and the IVF thing i brought up earlier. These embryos are just there, frozen, they do nothing. if they can bring a couple happiness by aiding in the process of IVF they did more good than just sitting in a fridge. and they don't even know it.

[catfish]

Every time that I plant a seed, he says "Kill it before it grows"...

[Statler Waldorf]

It's only with religious indoctrination and a belief that there's a mystical soul that occupies that collection of cells that you can believe that's a person with rights to life. Without the supernatural crap, that center can't hold.

[Emphasis by SW]

Oops!!! Maybe you should change your forum name…

The Five Principles of Deism (established by the “Father of Deism”, Herbert of Cherbury)

1. There is one God who created the world but who no longer intervenes by either revelation or miracle.
2. There is an objective difference between right and wrong.
3. The duty of one’s life is to support that which is right.
4. The soul is immortal.
5. Our condition in the life to come is based on our ethical conduct in this life.

[fr0d0]

I didn't mention murder
I didn't say that human life was special
Contraception isn't taking a life. it's preventing it. Very different.
Stem cell research... another ethical question. I guess you and I might agree that the sacrifice is justified.

You seem to want to place me over the fence.

Yes I accept there's a strong ethical case for sentience. My mother taught me that it was wrong to make insects suffer. I'm fully behind that one.

There's another ethical case for human life (I'm not discounting any other sentient life form at all. I want to address this subject), outside sentience. Could you answer again why you think sentient human life deserves ethical consideration when non sentient human life doesn't, this time avoiding the sentience angle.