A new understanding to an old premise

[Rayaan]

I know most of you think that this matrix reality and religion connection is a total philosophical wankery and useless, but, personally, I think it's a good one.

A lot of these ideas converge with theoretical science and information theory and I just find it interesting for some reason even though we can't really know whether or not we are actually living in a "matrix" or in some kind of giant computer, i.e. the universe itself. I've elaborated on my ideas on this in a different thread (and it's very long) ...

A Computational Perspective of Religion

[Drich]

Except that we were created by god, making any design flaws or deficiencies we do have his responsibility in the end.

Uh, no. God created Adam. From Adam produced Eve. After the Fall Adam and Eve began the reproduction process the spawned the rest of Humanity.

We have 3 different words that describe the orgins of man here To create (To take nothing and make something) To produce (To take existing material and make one similar to the orginal.) to Reproduce (To copy)

'we' are copies of God orginal creation. We are not created by God as Adam or even Eve was created by God. If you have a belly button your just a knock off.

If he's the creator of all things, he's also responsible for the choices he makes in doing so.

uh, no again. But! He did ultimately did take the responsiablity for the sins of the whole world. All we have to do is accept what has been done for us, for this responsiablity to be shifted from us and put on Christ..

I love that your answer here is that, essentially, god just wants to deceive us because making informed decisions would allow us to use logic and pick the choice that's best for us, though. That's awesome.

Has a blind man been deceived? Being place here simply equates to us being blinded to the known glory of God initially. If you want to be made aware of it all you have to do is A/S/K, and He has promised to make His glory known to you. In other words if your blind simply ask to see.

"They're making decisions that aren't based on irrational emotions and the intrinsic pride I gave them so they could make the wrong decisions and I could punish them?! Hell no! Matrix!"

The 'Matrix' isn't about pride and punishment. It's about give us the opportunity to choose God and forgiveness over our Pride and selfish want and desire.

This does raise a good question, though the reasoning behind it is a tad specious: can a person be removed from heaven and sent to hell? Or rather, when in heaven, would a person still have the kinds of desires and thoughts that would land him or her in hell at all? The bible kind of hints that it's a place where negativity just can't survive, right?

Sort of.

I believe there will be a lot of 'people/souls' who 'wake up from the matrix' who we would be consider to those who made it by the skin of their teeth, or there could be full of themselves pompus Christians who really shouldn't be there either. In any case these boarder line people will be allowed to live in/with Christ under His rule for 1000 years after the second coming (where Satan is sent to hell.) Then (1000 years later) He will be re-released to tempt and try and sway those who may not really truly want to be with God, to rise up and go to war with God again. at which time God further seperates wheat and chaff sending the chaff to the fire.
http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?sea...ersion=ERV

Seriously, what does your god have against people having complete information before they make choices?!

Nothing. He freely gives to those who A/S/K. For those who can not be bother to A/S/K then I guess they would not be interested in what He has to show them to A/S/K.

No, because tyrants do a lot of judging too.

So? Do tyrants Judge Justly? Accurate Just judgement is something you can not do or eve experience in this life for no one has the ablity to see and judge all aspects of not only your physical life but your thoughts and motivations as well.

If I reject the criteria by which I am being judged- and I do, based on your ad hoc rationalizations here- then I'm still entirely capable of seeing this judgment for the farce that it is.

we'll see.. I thought the same as you for a long time, then I was judged.

Which is essentially you saying not to aspire to anything. Would not people with knowledge of heaven from the outset, knowing that it's there and that there's a benevolent creator god with a higher moral standing to aspire to, work to better themselves to make themselves worthy of this?

No. We are literal Slaves to sin, and we can not serve two masters. We are bound to love one and despise the other. For those who want to love God a way has been provided for those who A/S/K. For those who don't will despise God.

I mean, you already think that: in your view, christians have the knowledge of god, and do good deeds to put themselves at heaven's gates, so to you, that's what knowledge of heaven does. Why are we being kept from it, in that case?

Pride is the only thing that keeps anyone from God, once they have heard of Him. Pride in that the ways and understandings of man somehow trump God.
Christians are not born with the knowledge of God they simply elect to have knowledge of God seek it and search it out and God gives us what He has promised in the bible. (Knoweledge, teaching and wisdom via the Holy Spirit.) That is the only difference between me and many of you.

And before you say a single damn word about free will, let me remind you that you just said earlier that people can have knowledge of heaven, lie to themselves in order to go there, and still end up breaking for their pride in the end.

I said if God's Glory (You were completely informed of the decision you were going to make) were completely known someone of us would lie to ourselves to get to Heaven for fear of a very real Hell.. That is why you have been blinded by God and placed in this world/matrix. So that only those who want to see/who have asked to see in order to make their decision are allowed to see what they are able to process.

If you are faithful to what God has given you, you will be given more. if not what you have will be take from you and given to someone else.

---

I know most of you think that this matrix reality and religion connection is a total philosophical wankery and useless, but, personally, I think it's a good one.

A lot of these ideas converge with theoretical science and information theory and I just find it interesting for some reason even though we can't really know whether or not we are actually living in a "matrix" or in some kind of giant computer, i.e. the universe itself. I've elaborated on my ideas on this in a different thread (and it's very long) ...

A Computational Perspective of Religion

Interesting.. You lost me more than once, but still very interesting.

[Esquilax]

Uh, no. God created Adam. From Adam produced Eve. After the Fall Adam and Eve began the reproduction process the spawned the rest of Humanity.

And god wasn't aware- indeed, had planned via placing an unnecessary tree in the garden to tempt them- that this was going to happen?

'we' are copies of God orginal creation. We are not created by God as Adam or even Eve was created by God. If you have a belly button your just a knock off.

Does anything happen that's not in accordance with god's will?

Has a blind man been deceived? Being place here simply equates to us being blinded to the known glory of God initially. If you want to be made aware of it all you have to do is A/S/K, and He has promised to make His glory known to you. In other words if your blind simply ask to see.

Why have I been made blind to begin with? I didn't start out blind, I was blindfolded and then asked to make a choice that I could only make by seeing, that affects my whole eternity. This is not a fair, just, or rational system.

The 'Matrix' isn't about pride and punishment. It's about give us the opportunity to choose God and forgiveness over our Pride and selfish want and desire.

And what's wrong about being informed before having to make this choice? Why does god hate people having good information before choosing things?

Nothing. He freely gives to those who A/S/K. For those who can not be bother to A/S/K then I guess they would not be interested in what He has to show them to A/S/K.

Why add in the obfuscation, though? It's exactly what I said: we don't all have the full information that is required, yet we're all expected to make the choice.

And we've already discussed why this A/S/K thing is entirely irrational. We've discussed it to death.

So? Do tyrants Judge Justly? Accurate Just judgement is something you can not do or eve experience in this life for no one has the ablity to see and judge all aspects of not only your physical life but your thoughts and motivations as well.

I guarantee you that all of those tyrants were of the position that their judgments were just and accurate too.

No. We are literal Slaves to sin, and we can not serve two masters. We are bound to love one and despise the other. For those who want to love God a way has been provided for those who A/S/K. For those who don't will despise God.

Why would god not give us all the knowledge at the outset so we can choose correctly? Because that's the implication; you believe that heaven is the correct choice, hell is the incorrect one, and that god would deliberately obfuscate himself behind this A/S/K paywall so that people that he apparently loves can make the wrong choice, without ever knowing that's what they're doing.

How can you square this with the idea of just judgments?

Pride is the only thing that keeps anyone from God, once they have heard of Him. Pride in that the ways and understandings of man somehow trump God.

So then knowledge of heaven wouldn't do anything to influence our ability to choose unduly, and yet it's still kept from us. Gotcha.

Christians are not born with the knowledge of God they simply elect to have knowledge of God seek it and search it out and God gives us what He has promised in the bible. (Knoweledge, teaching and wisdom via the Holy Spirit.) That is the only difference between me and many of you.

Which is an irrational presupposition from the outset. Seriously, knowledge only influences one to have a higher chance of making a correct decision; what does god have against people making correct decisions?

I said if God's Glory (You were completely informed of the decision you were going to make) were completely known someone of us would lie to ourselves to get to Heaven for fear of a very real Hell.. That is why you have been blinded by God and placed in this world/matrix. So that only those who want to see/who have asked to see in order to make their decision are allowed to see what they are able to process.

Meaning god wants people to go to hell if they won't play his game. Gotcha. God wants people to suffer, so he places them in a situation where the maximum number of people will.

[Drich]

And god wasn't aware- indeed, had planned via placing an unnecessary tree in the garden to tempt them- that this was going to happen?

If God wasn't aware then why plant the tree, that offers choice? If the tree repersents unknown choice then why include this variable? Why not stick with absolutes?

Does anything happen that's not in accordance with god's will?

Why would it be 'God's will' to hand craft 100 trillion indivisuals when he can make them self replicating?

Why have I been made blind to begin with?

Because you couldn't make an honest choice if you have been given over to see what your not ready to see.

I didn't start out blind, I was blindfolded and then asked to make a choice that I could only make by seeing, that affects my whole eternity. This is not a fair, just, or rational system.

How do you know how you started out?

And what's wrong about being informed before having to make this choice?

Nothing, in fact He commands that you educate yourself or at least ask for help.

Why does god hate people having good information before choosing things?

Because like in life (apart from God) ignorance is apart of choice.

Why add in the obfuscation, though? It's exactly what I said: we don't all have the full information that is required, yet we're all expected to make the choice.

Because with unearned full knoweledge you would simply default to whatever benfits you most.

And we've already discussed why this A/S/K thing is entirely irrational.

Maybe that is the point. Maybe A/S/King is supposed to be counter intuitive, that way whatever you find, can be attributed to God and not to some logical rational.

I guarantee you that all of those tyrants were of the position that their judgments were just and accurate too.

Do you not even see your own bias here? I asked to look at a Judge who can not only know absolutly everything you ACTUALLY and truthfully did, but can accuratly know your inner thoughts, reasons and dialog. This is the judge I asked you to look at. Not your tyrant version who 'feels' justified.

Your trying to compare apples and oranges, and serve with a side of red herring.

Why would god not give us all the knowledge at the outset so we can choose correctly?

God gives in small easy to understand 'bites.' If we take in what has been given we will be given more. If we do nothing with or can't understand what He has started us with then we will not be given more.

We do the same thing when educating our kids. We don't start out 6 year olds with a surgeon's study load, even if that kid will eventually be a surgeon. He starts out by trying to color between the lines, and cutting art projects out of construction paper. We wouldn't start a 6 year old out with cutting a heart out of a medical cadaver and diesecting it.

Because that's the implication; you believe that heaven is the correct choice, hell is the incorrect one, and that god would deliberately obfuscate himself behind this A/S/K paywall so that people that he apparently loves can make the wrong choice, without ever knowing that's what they're doing.

Ah, that's the problem your having! Understand Heaven is not the correct choice for everyone. This world this life has been given to us to descern whether or not heaven (and eternal service to God) is indeed the correct choice for us. If you can not stand God (or what little you know of Him in this life) How can you say you will be willing to love and serve for eternity?

How can you square this with the idea of just judgments?

Really simply, Heaven is not for everyone, and God will not drag you into Heaven and force you to serve Him.

So then knowledge of heaven wouldn't do anything to influence our ability to choose unduly, and yet it's still kept from us. Gotcha.

What you can't seem to get your mind around is that Heaven or even knoweledge of Heaven/Hell will not or does not always have to be unknowable.
If you want to be Educated you must A/S/K for the knoweledge. If you are in ignorance, it is because you choose to be ignorant. It's like a kid who skips school every chance he gets. At the end of his 12 years of grade school do you think he will be ready for life or to further his education? No, of course not, but who's fault is it that this kid skipped school? Who made that decision everyday? He chooses to be ignorant, because he refuses to goto school and learn what is being taught. In turn if you choose not to A/S/K then you like this kid choose to be ignorant of what God has to teach you. Which in of itself (for you) is the right choice.

Which is an irrational presupposition from the outset. Seriously, knowledge only influences one to have a higher chance of making a correct decision; what does god have against people making correct decisions?

Again what is a 'correct desision?'
Heaven is not for everyone, so whatever you choose will be right for you. Have you not heard MisoTheist say: "It is better to reign in Hell than to be a slave in Heaven?"

This is the choice you are looking at, not all are willing to serve and love God for eternity.

Meaning god wants people to go to hell if they won't play his game.

Yes. Because this 'game' is about your eternal placement.

Gotcha. God wants people to suffer, so he places them in a situation where the maximum number of people will.

Sometimes love demands that the hard hearted child suffers. The story of "the prodigal son" comes to mind.

[The Grand Nudger]

I find it amusing that your faith lends itself so well to comparison with other works of fiction. Good job, carry on. Tell me more about the wizard, the dragon, the rib-woman, and the magical fruit?

[Bad Writer]

Is Heaven ( where God lives) of this world? Is it s physical place? Is Hell a place on the map you can go to? Even if you had a star ship could you plot a course to heaven or hell? No. It does not exist in this realm.

Your assumptions are what drive your understanding of heaven and hell. So, if you have some evidence to show how you know that these places are not of this reality, then perhaps the Mormons also have similar evidence to support their own doctrine that Heaven is actually a Solar System where God lives and that Hell is located on Earth. How do you know that your assumption is right, and that the Mormons' assumptions are wrong?

Hmmm...I counted a few assumptions here. I especially liked the one about how we are transdimensional beings because apparently Hell is another realm or dimension or what have you.

then by all mean please provide the GPS coordinates to Heaven or hell, so we can dispel this theory and provide the rest of you with the "proof" of God you all have been looking for.

It's not up to me to prove your assumptions are right or wrong. All I'm doing is saying, "I don't see your evidence, so I don't feel the need to believe you." If you want coordinates (GPS coordinates beyond this world is a bit of a misnomer, since GPS only works on earth) then perhaps you should ask a faith that seems to know where these places are in this world, such as the Mormon Church. I'm not the person to answer your questions.

We're held accountable to a test we didn't submit ourselves to? What a bastard! And all we get in order to pass this test are little clues and hints here and there? This guy God is a dick!

What makes you think you did not submit to this test? Is you memory your only bit-o-evidence? If so are you saying you did not exist in any capacity before you can physically remember existing? What did you do before your earliest memory? Did you not exist? Are you sure? Why? Now how are you sure your soul did not exist before your body did? How can you be sure if you did not have the hardware to log a physical memory?

That's a strawman argument, and I don't go after those. "I don't know" is all you'll get from me because I'm not too concerned with baseless assumptions. You can believe you existed before you were born, but you still need to provide evidence to your claim. If you cannot, you shouldn't tell others that these ideas of yours are true.

So you're equating God putting us on earth as him sentencing us to a prison term...for a crime we never committed?

crime is a term that describes a sin against society. And your right some of us live an entire life and do not commit a single crime. But all have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God. I did not call you a criminal, you sport are a sinner like the rest of humanity.

Sorry, I tuned you out there because you were preaching.

Where do you get off telling us that we're all criminals?

criminal is your word old sport, I simply identified all of us myself included as sinners as the bible has.

If you're equating earth to a prison, and if, as you assert, we are put here by god, then we are condemned to this existence. If a person is in prison, then we can only assume that he/she committed some crime. "Criminal" may have been uttered by me, but it was a word unspoken by you. You just projected your own assertion onto the critic (me), and that is a fallacy of ignorance.

If you really loved your fellow man, then you could start by not condemning us all in your head because of what you think your imaginary friend is telling you. Come down off of Bullshit mountain and join society, my friend!

i would counter by pointing out that society is a fair bit bigger than the small hedge you find acceptable. Because society does indeed include those who love and worship God.

Touche. I guess I want you to come join me on my hedge of awesomeness then.

[Esquilax]

If God wasn't aware then why plant the tree, that offers choice? If the tree repersents unknown choice then why include this variable? Why not stick with absolutes?

Read what I said again. The implication is that god was indeed aware of what would happen, and given that he made it occur, he's ultimately responsible for the knock-on consequences.

Why would it be 'God's will' to hand craft 100 trillion indivisuals when he can make them self replicating?

A child in my care is self replicating and yet still my responsibility.

Because you couldn't make an honest choice if you have been given over to see what your not ready to see.

If your concern is making "honest choices" then your theory serves you poorly: by definition one cannot make an honest choice when the factors actually at play are being concealed. And by definition, any god that would deliberately obscure key factors in a decision making process isn't interested in honest choices.

How do you know how you started out?

Because you are saying that I was inserted into a matrix- blindfolded, so to speak- when the truth- being able to see- is something else.

Nothing, in fact He commands that you educate yourself or at least ask for help.

Whilst at the same time making it more difficult to do so. Textbook hypocrisy.

Because like in life (apart from God) ignorance is apart of choice.

Not good choices, or even rational ones. What kind of message does your god intend to send, if he's endorsing important decisions made on the basis of incomplete information?

Because with unearned full knoweledge you would simply default to whatever benfits you most.

Nothing in that sentence makes any sense. You're posing a scenario with two choices, one of which is not only objectively correct, but also subjectively and morally correct, and yet a selfish motive for taking that path is somehow less valid?

And how do you know that we'd all default to the selfish option anyway? Doesn't your knowledge of god cause you to be a better, more charitable person? You've got the knowledge that hell exists, and yet I doubt you'd claim the sole reason you do what you do is to avoid it, to benefit yourself. Is the asking for it really that much of a game changer?

Isn't knowledge of your god supposed to inspire better actions, anyway?

Maybe that is the point. Maybe A/S/King is supposed to be counter intuitive, that way whatever you find, can be attributed to God and not to some logical rational.

If that's the case, why make rationality to begin with, and more importantly, why make it the most accurate way to discover the truth of everything else in the universe besides god?

Why create a tool that works wonderfully for everything except the most important question in the whole of reality? How is that not just a mean spirited trick?

Do you not even see your own bias here? I asked to look at a Judge who can not only know absolutly everything you ACTUALLY and truthfully did, but can accuratly know your inner thoughts, reasons and dialog. This is the judge I asked you to look at. Not your tyrant version who 'feels' justified.

And how do you know god is so different from those earthly tyrants? Someone can know the whole of a thing and still judge unjustly based on personal reasons and biases. Complete knowledge doesn't necessarily entail that the correct actions will be taken based upon it.

Your trying to compare apples and oranges, and serve with a side of red herring.

So you say, but without any kind of justification for your counter position, my point stands.

God gives in small easy to understand 'bites.' If we take in what has been given we will be given more. If we do nothing with or can't understand what He has started us with then we will not be given more.

We do the same thing when educating our kids. We don't start out 6 year olds with a surgeon's study load, even if that kid will eventually be a surgeon. He starts out by trying to color between the lines, and cutting art projects out of construction paper. We wouldn't start a 6 year old out with cutting a heart out of a medical cadaver and diesecting it.

Now this is a red herring, because the idea that's being potentially transmitted in this case is not only very simple- there's a heaven- but is already being transmitted just in a less than convincing way. I'm not asking for the moon and the stars, just that one very simple concept be made self evident, rather than being related through the terrible means it's currently being told through.

Ah, that's the problem your having! Understand Heaven is not the correct choice for everyone. This world this life has been given to us to descern whether or not heaven (and eternal service to God) is indeed the correct choice for us. If you can not stand God (or what little you know of Him in this life) How can you say you will be willing to love and serve for eternity?

You say that, but hell is definitely an objectively bad choice, thereby making heaven, at the very least, the lesser of two evils. Or are you positing the idea that hell could be the preferable option?

Really simply, Heaven is not for everyone, and God will not drag you into Heaven and force you to serve Him.

But he'll drag you into a matrix- style pocket universe?

What you can't seem to get your mind around is that Heaven or even knoweledge of Heaven/Hell will not or does not always have to be unknowable.

I won't quote the whole passage here, but refer back to what I said about rationality to see my thoughts on this stuff mirrored quite nicely.

Again what is a 'correct desision?'
Heaven is not for everyone, so whatever you choose will be right for you. Have you not heard MisoTheist say: "It is better to reign in Hell than to be a slave in Heaven?"

Except that heaven's supposed to be an eternal reward for good deeds, no? And hell's a punishment? At least, from your point of view, even the "separation from god" angle would be an unhappy ending for a person, no?

Yes. Because this 'game' is about your eternal placement.

Why does a god that already knows the answer need to set up the game in the first place?

[Faith No More]

Asked and answered in post number 9 old sport.

How so? I see nothing in that post that answers my objections.

[Bad Writer]

Asked and answered in post number 9 old sport.

How so? I see nothing in that post that answers my objections.

If you haven't figured it out yet, he's lazy. That's why he won't answer your objections to your satisfaction, and that's also why he dreams up false realities all day and ignores the actual reality.

[Faith No More]

I don't know. Someone that is capable of performing such a vast amount of mental gymnastics can't be that lazy.