Capitalism: The Foundation of Human Life and Morality

[genkaus]

-A reasonable man would quickly ask: "But if Capitalism is wrong because humans are imperfect, then why are we giving a group of humans near infinite power to rule over us in a monopoly?"

A reasonable man would quickly answer: "We don't".

I'm sorry, but you do realise organised crime and drug dealers only exist because those drugs are made illegal by the government? Without the government, none of these drug wars, etc would even exist.

I'm sorry, but you do realize that this statement is insanely stupid - ofcourse you don't. Without the government, these drug wars would be the way of life for all of us.

Because when an industry is made illegal by the government, very few people want to get involved with it because of the risks involved- which naturally creates a void in demand which means higher margins. And if you are some kid growing up in a ghetto/welfare estate (which is caused by the government again), making a few hundred dollars in a day selling drugs is quite appealing to those that have nothing to lose. That's why you get so many outlandish and violent people in drug trade, rather than Joe Shmo businessmen.

Otherwise it would be an Amsterdam coffee shop, rather than some creepy guy in the back of an alley.

But I'm sure you know all this already.

Right idea - wrong, wrong conclusion. It is not that only a violent person would get into drug trade, it is that for those who do, violence is the only option left. If you are trading legal goods, then that means that the rules of the land automatically apply. Which means that in case of any dispute or conflict of interests, you go to the courts - an objective authority. In trading illegal goods, this recourse is not available to you - which is why you resort to violence.

Your dream of buying drugs in an Amsterdam coffee shop can only come true with the presence of the government. Otherwise, you'd be buying coffee from a creepy guy in the back alley.

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The United States made its greatest advances when capitalism was controlled by government regulation on one hand and labor unions on the other.

Then...the pigs got greedy. What we have now is hardly an "advance." Unless you think going down the shitter is "advancement."

On the other hand:

The United States made its greatest advances with capitalism despite it being controlled by government regulation on one hand and labor unions on the other. Now the effects of all that control is catching up to them.

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Koolay displays a fervent, devout faith in the goodness of the invisible hand of the market. One might even say he seems to think it is a god with our best interests at heart.

Koolay displays a fervent, devout faith in his insane belief that all government is evil. If he is somehow convinced that the "invisible hand" needs the government to work, he'd drop his support for capitalism faster than a turd.

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Well okay, if you think I made a logical error I would like to hear it.

You've made too many to count. Starting with the assumption that government is evil and all it does is control, enslave and steal from people.

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Rand Paul - a US senator (showing how far that title has gone down the shitter) thinks "private property" means that white store owners should be able to only serve whites if they want to. I do not.

I don't know anything about this guy, but I do agree with him here.

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But I will go anyway. Private property is valid because we all own our bodies by definition, as private property, nobody else can own our bodies, physically, morally, mathematically. So when people say "private property is wrong" or immoral, or exploitative or whatever, they are literally contradicting their own principle infinitely, and rejecting their very being.

How is it possible to "mathematically" own anything?

And your explanation here is ridiculous. You cannot justify ownership by presupposing the concept of ownership.

Private property does have a valid, logical justification for it, but the one you have given is not it.

Besides, I don't see anyone here actually saying that "private property is wrong".

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eBay is an example of a DRO service in the private sector. They solve millions of disputes between people across different parts of the world, without government involvement.

Wrong. Government is involved.

[cratehorus]

You understand historically, the government set up the legal apparatus to trade and own slaves, and also offer incentive to those to own or return slaves back to their master. The less than scrupulous private land owners that traded in flesh, was all made possible by the state's enforcement.

what is government? if i pull a gun and rape your wife am i not the governor???????? you seem to confuse democracy with government

In a free society that would violate the the non aggression principle, you are aggressing against someone and are subject to the consequences that comes with that.

what the fuck are on about???????????

Not to mention, owning slaves is incredibly under productive. A) All the slaves resent you and your employees. B) They will only do what is necessary to not be whipped, half assed job. C) They require constant supervision and management, since they have zero incentive other than avoiding the whip. D) You need to pay for their shelter and food, and water. This came at a huge bill for slave owners,

the lynch family ripped the limbs by horse from the strongest of the males of a new crop of slaves too justify their dominancy amongst the rest of slaves so what the fuck r u talkin about

it is much more profitable if you do the morally correct thing and employ someone voluntary, since they will self manage, pay for their own food and shelter, don't resent you, have a vested incentive to a good job and make sure your company does not fail.

no it is much more profitable if enslave people and force them too work for cornmeal

Only a mad man would want a team of slaves rather than voluntary workers.

no slaves work under threat of death ..............volunteers can leave whenever the flying fuck they want
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[bennyboy]

I'm not against slavery-- I just think it should be inflicted as a deserving punishment. I'd much rather have Saddam Hussein digging ditches than feeding daisies. Let him walk around the White House garden with a ball and chain, as a warning to whoever thinks they are strong enough to challenge the US.

[Cato]

Koolay,

Did you recently finish reading Atlas Shrugged for the first time?

[genkaus]

Koolay,

Did you recently finish reading Atlas Shrugged for the first time?

Nope. If he had he wouldn't be arguing for such ridiculous ideas.

[Fidel_Castronaut]

We've advanced more under capitalism in the last few decades than in the entirety of human history.

The United States made its greatest advances when capitalism was controlled by government regulation on one hand and labor unions on the other.

Then...the pigs got greedy. What we have now is hardly an "advance." Unless you think going down the shitter is "advancement."

One has to be careful when talking about complex paradigms like capitalism and its association with government, though.

I am in agreement 100% with a mixed economy because evidence (and history) shows us that's what works. going to either extreme generally gives bad results.

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eBay is an example of a DRO service in the private sector. They solve millions of disputes between people across different parts of the world, without government involvement.

And what of all the disputes that don't get settled by eBay and result in further action? Who deals with those?

What about the legal system(s) that eBay are bound to operate under dependent on the state to which they are trading in?

[Minimalist]

I'm not against slavery-- I just think it should be inflicted as a deserving punishment. I'd much rather have Saddam Hussein digging ditches than feeding daisies. Let him walk around the White House garden with a ball and chain, as a warning to whoever thinks they are strong enough to challenge the US.

The Romans used to parade captured enemies through the streets and then publicly strangle them. Perhaps you think the American empire should do the same?

[bennyboy]

The Romans used to parade captured enemies through the streets and then publicly strangle them. Perhaps you think the American empire should do the same?

That's not slavery, although it's a great idea. I mean, you have thousands of permanent detainees, and some broadcast corporations have poor Nielsen ratings. If only there was some way to reduce the prison population, as well as revitalizing the entertainment industry.

But I'm talking about something more permanent. Photo op: "Obama uses Hussein as footrest while doing Sunday crossword. Here's a pic of Bin Laden giving the presidential pooch a curly pink perm."

[Koolay]

One has to be careful when talking about complex paradigms like capitalism and its association with government, though.

It's not complex. Capitalists do not use violence to achieve their profits. Government does. The 'relationship' capitalists have with the government is that of the business end of a gun.

I am in agreement 100% with a mixed economy

It's not a mixed economy... Government is not an economy at all but an anti-economy. Thieves don't add to an economy, they destroy it.

because evidence (and history) shows us that's what works. going to either extreme generally gives bad results.

Really? So you must have lots of evidence at an 'extremely' peaceful society not initiating force against each other.

Saying that 'we need to mix government and capitalism' is like saying we need a mixture of love making and rapists. Or a mixture of thieves and traders.

Either all initiation of violence is wrong or it isn't, you can't just arbitrarily decide what is correct or not, you need to adhere to principles, or stop pretending to care about virtue.

And what of all the disputes that don't get settled by eBay and result in further action? Who deals with those?

What about the legal system(s) that eBay are bound to operate under dependent on the state to which they are trading in?

All disputes get resolved by eBay and Paypal, the winner of the case then has the option to file a police report to the buyer/seller if they want to.

Well all companies have government 'law' enforced upon them. So I don't know what you want me to say.
It's like someone hundreds of years ago saying to someone "Show me a society without slavery that has been succusful!" Maybe if we stopped pointing guns, swords and whips at each other, we can find out.

[Brian37]

If I asked you, what seperates human behaviour from the behaviour of animals what would you say?

Probably thinking, language, negotiation, something like that?

Well indeed, yes. Negotiation and language is the litmus paper test between human and non human. Unlike other primitive species, when we want something from another, we will usually negotiate, trade or convince someone to do it, non violently, non coercively. This saves both parties from injury, and also both parties win, rather than one killing or injuring the other and taking the other's food or whatever.

If I grow oranges, and you grow apples, by us trading, we now get to eat both oranges and apples, so we both benefit from the trade. Whereas if one were to forcefully take the other's produce, only one of us would benefit.

The only alternative to free market capitalism is coercion, stealing and aggression.

Of course, humans can be our predators. Not everyone wants to peacefully trade and negotiate.



These primitive people are incapable of trade and negotiation and will threat, extort, steal your resources. They are devoid of empathy, most of them are in what are called governments- were groups of people are not bound by the laws of the non aggression principle that we follow.

It's no secret the most violent, corrupt and repugnant of people are against free trade. These people are your predators, these people are those who will take your resources and put you in a cage if you disagree with what they think, and they will say you are a bad person if you do not like it. To support governments is to spit on yourself and wipe the boots of your oppressor. Free market capitalism is freedom, and inevitably, it will prevail.

Bullshit. This is simplistic.

First off "capitalism" IS NOT A FORM OF GOVERNMENT.

Gadaffi was a billionaire who owned stock in GE. China capitalizes off the sale of cheap goods on the backs of slave wages. Saudi Arabia capitalizes off the sale of oil.

All humans seek power, as individuals and groups. Money is the way those things are maintained. Anything can go off the rails if left to it's own devices, religion, politics, nationalism, AND BUSINESS.

Everything can be gamed because humans run all those things.

Capitalism isn't a cure, it is a means, just like politics and religion. All of those things are group think that seek resources to gain a advantage.

The issue is monopolies of power and abuse of power. Business by itself can be just as harmful and exploit just like religion and politics.

"I scratch your back you scratch mine" is what we all do, in all those aspects. But what makes it more fair is when we insist in law that no one can have a monopoly of power, INCLUDING BUSINESS.