Outrage in Italy after bananas are thrown at its first black minister.

[kılıç_mehmet]

Attacking the president of the Republic? Highly unlikely, since Giorgio Napolitano is very popular and is the closest a president of the Republic can get to a (british) monarch in matters of respect. Also, Cecile Kyenge is very, very far from "ruling the country": her ministry is the Ministry for Integration - that means, since there are immigrants, let's try and make their stay in Italy nice and fair. And since she was an immigrant (she came in Italy to study medicine) and has acquired over the years italian citizenship, she was the most suitable person for that place. Yet there are some fuckwits who like to insult her because she is black and who want her to give up. Fortunately, they are a small minority. Unfortunately, they are a loud one.

Well in no way I encourage disorder anywhere, and throwing bananas, eggs and etc is a type of protest I've always disliked. But if they are mad at anyone, it should be the president who has appointed a black person as minister.
Besides, not everyone wants a foreigner or even a native ethnic minority to be a person of power in governmental instituitons.

[festive1]

Attacking the president of the Republic? Highly unlikely, since Giorgio Napolitano is very popular and is the closest a president of the Republic can get to a (british) monarch in matters of respect. Also, Cecile Kyenge is very, very far from "ruling the country": her ministry is the Ministry for Integration - that means, since there are immigrants, let's try and make their stay in Italy nice and fair. And since she was an immigrant (she came in Italy to study medicine) and has acquired over the years italian citizenship, she was the most suitable person for that place. Yet there are some fuckwits who like to insult her because she is black and who want her to give up. Fortunately, they are a small minority. Unfortunately, they are a loud one.

Well in no way I encourage disorder anywhere, and throwing bananas, eggs and etc is a type of protest I've always disliked. But if they are mad at anyone, it should be the president who has appointed a black person as minister.
Besides, not everyone wants a foreigner or even a native ethnic minority to be a person of power in governmental instituitons.

Wait... So you're saying in an electoral, parliamentary government, minorities should not have representation? Let alone, equal representation... They just don't matter? If they can't have representation in government, what or who is protecting their rights, interests, and liberties?

[kılıç_mehmet]

Well in no way I encourage disorder anywhere, and throwing bananas, eggs and etc is a type of protest I've always disliked. But if they are mad at anyone, it should be the president who has appointed a black person as minister.
Besides, not everyone wants a foreigner or even a native ethnic minority to be a person of power in governmental instituitons.

Wait... So you're saying in an electoral, parliamentary government, minorities should not have representation? Let alone, equal representation... They just don't matter? If they can't have representation in government, what or who is protecting their rights, interests, and liberties?

Well, they can have representatives, but in my opinion that's just about it. Currently, only one ethnic minority has representatives in our parliament, and they have close ties to the ethnic seperatists who operate inside our borders. Yet because we're so "democratic" we can't close their party and kick their asses out.

Since you don't live in a country where minorities represent a threat to your sovereignity, you can't understand this, but know this that minorities always play their own game. They always pursue a different cause than what the general public needs or desires.
Similarly, this woman wanted to enact a law in Italy that grants citizenship to the children of immigrants as long as they're born in Italy, very much like in the US and Canada.
Where is the fairness in that?

Besides, they can't have eqaul representation, they're a minority. Did you expect them to share 50:50 of all the seats in the parliament? 50 seats for minorities, 50 seats for the majority. Yeah, sure.

In my view, minorities are subject to the same laws and have the same rights as the majority. If they ask for something more, they are more than welcome to leave, to a place where the majority feels like fulfilling every wish and desire of minorities. I on the other hand, do not wish to live under the dictatorship of the minority, which they try to implement today in my country, of course, with threats of continued violence.

[festive1]

What I mean by equal representation is equal to the proportion of their minority in the general populace. If they make up 10% of the populace, they should have 10% representation in a legislature. Which isn't even found in the US legislative bodies.
If someone is born in a country, they are citizens of that country. I realize this isn't how it works in a lot of places. However, if they aren't citizens of the country of their birth, what country are they citizens of? The country of their parent's birth? A place they may have never even visited? That is nonsensical. People of Italian ancestry are citizens of Italy by virtue of being born there, so how is supporting this same privilege for minorities in any way biased or special treatment? This is equal treatment of people without regard to their ethnic background.

Your xenophobia is showing, and it's not pretty.

[kılıç_mehmet]

What I mean by equal representation is equal to the proportion of their minority in the general populace. If they make up 10% of the populace, they should have 10% representation in a legislature. Which isn't even found in the US legislative bodies.
If someone is born in a country, they are citizens of that country. I realize this isn't how it works in a lot of places. However, if they aren't citizens of the country of their birth, what country are they citizens of? The country of their parent's birth? A place they may have never even visited? That is nonsensical. People of Italian ancestry are citizens of Italy by virtue of being born there, so how is supporting this same privilege for minorities in any way biased or special treatment? This is equal treatment of people without regard to their ethnic background.

Your xenophobia is showing, and it's not pretty.

Nehi. Its not as easy as that friend. If the said 10% had lived in the same area and all voted for the same people, yes, sure, why not, they can get their 10% representation within the government.
But in most cases for immigrants at least, they won't.
And if they don't, they won't get a "distinct" representation.
My country has minorities, and only one can represent themselves in such a way because of the reason that they make up the ethnic majority in certain places, they can get PM's that pursue their interests. But its not to say that they have an equal share in the government in contrast with their current percentage of the population. And they probably never will due to the fact they emigrate to areas where they are not the majority and if they vote for their own party, their votes are not enough to win them a PM.

If someone is born in a country, they are citizens of that country.

That's ridiculous. I have been living in this country for generations, my forefathers have worked, fought and bled for this country, and I am ethnically, culturally and linguistically a member of the majority of the people, and some baby from Somalia is born here and he gets to be a citizen just as I am, just by being born here by accident or by intention? This is not America, lady, nor Canada. Here, citizenship is measured by the ties to the people and the ties to the customs, culture and language.

However, if they aren't citizens of the country of their birth, what country are they citizens of? The country of their parent's birth? A place they may have never even visited?

Well, if they live in the said country for a period of time, the country will eventually grant them citizenship. However what if I told you that I have a friend that is a US citizen, but has never lived there?
His mother and father were in the states at that time, his mother gave birth to him, and he was granted citizenship. Then they went back. He has no friends, no relatives, nothing whatsoever in the US.

Of course the best is to grant a child the citizenship of their parent's birthplace.

People of Italian ancestry are citizens of Italy by virtue of being born there, so how is supporting this same privilege for minorities in any way biased or special treatment?

Well, not by just being born there, they are born as Italians, on the accord that their ancestors were also Italians, and have been living in Italy for who knows how long.
This privilage should be in the hands of italians, since Italy is a nation state, built on the Italian ethnic identity.
Citizenship by birth is a new-world phenomena. Don't try to fuck up the old world with it.

This is equal treatment of people without regard to their ethnic background.

Well, if you have that, what purpose is there to have a nation state at all? If there is equal treatment, perhaps the state of Italy should change its name to something that sounds more "egalitarian" and "foreign to the concept of ethnicity" and declare every minority language to have the same status as Italian.
You people are mad.

[Anomalocaris]

What I mean by equal representation is equal to the proportion of their minority in the general populace. If they make up 10% of the populace, they should have 10% representation in a legislature. Which isn't even found in the US legislative bodies.
If someone is born in a country, they are citizens of that country. I realize this isn't how it works in a lot of places. However, if they aren't citizens of the country of their birth, what country are they citizens of? The country of their parent's birth? A place they may have never even visited? That is nonsensical. People of Italian ancestry are citizens of Italy by virtue of being born there, so how is supporting this same privilege for minorities in any way biased or special treatment? This is equal treatment of people without regard to their ethnic background.

Your xenophobia is showing, and it's not pretty.

When the only "accomplishment" he could credit himself is a make belief relationship between what he conceive to be his kind, and genghis khan, it is only natural to inflate himself with puffy jingoism because that is the only thing which could brings his mind off of his abject inferiority to everyone else on the planet.

[kılıç_mehmet]

What I mean by equal representation is equal to the proportion of their minority in the general populace. If they make up 10% of the populace, they should have 10% representation in a legislature. Which isn't even found in the US legislative bodies.
If someone is born in a country, they are citizens of that country. I realize this isn't how it works in a lot of places. However, if they aren't citizens of the country of their birth, what country are they citizens of? The country of their parent's birth? A place they may have never even visited? That is nonsensical. People of Italian ancestry are citizens of Italy by virtue of being born there, so how is supporting this same privilege for minorities in any way biased or special treatment? This is equal treatment of people without regard to their ethnic background.

Your xenophobia is showing, and it's not pretty.

When the only "accomplishment" he could credit himself is a make belief relationship between what he conceive to be his kind, and genghis khan, it is only natural to inflate himself with puffy jingoism because that is the only thing which could brings his mind off of his abject inferiority to everyone else on the planet.

I don't conceieve, I know this by my blood, friend.
Those who cannot account for their bloodline should not think the same for others.

[festive1]

What I mean by equal representation is equal to the proportion of their minority in the general populace. If they make up 10% of the populace, they should have 10% representation in a legislature. Which isn't even found in the US legislative bodies.
If someone is born in a country, they are citizens of that country. I realize this isn't how it works in a lot of places. However, if they aren't citizens of the country of their birth, what country are they citizens of? The country of their parent's birth? A place they may have never even visited? That is nonsensical. People of Italian ancestry are citizens of Italy by virtue of being born there, so how is supporting this same privilege for minorities in any way biased or special treatment? This is equal treatment of people without regard to their ethnic background.

Your xenophobia is showing, and it's not pretty.

Nehi. Its not as easy as that friend. If the said 10% had lived in the same area and all voted for the same people, yes, sure, why not, they can get their 10% representation within the government.
But in most cases for immigrants at least, they won't.
And if they don't, they won't get a "distinct" representation.
My country has minorities, and only one can represent themselves in such a way because of the reason that they make up the ethnic majority in certain places, they can get PM's that pursue their interests. But its not to say that they have an equal share in the government in contrast with their current percentage of the population. And they probably never will due to the fact they emigrate to areas where they are not the majority and if they vote for their own party, their votes are not enough to win them a PM.

I'm not talking PM's or presidents, I'm talking about legislative bodies which represent the public. How can a legislature be representative if it doesn't include minority groups that are present in the general population?

If someone is born in a country, they are citizens of that country.

That's ridiculous. I have been living in this country for generations, my forefathers have worked, fought and bled for this country, and I am ethnically, culturally and linguistically a member of the majority of the people, and some baby from Somalia is born here and he gets to be a citizen just as I am, just by being born here by accident or by intention? This is not America, lady, nor Canada. Here, citizenship is measured by the ties to the people and the ties to the customs, culture and language.

No. You have only lived in Turkey for your life. Your ancestors have lived there for generations.
Riddle me this: What happens when that Somali child grows up and has children? What about the citizenship of that child? Or that child's child? Their family has lived in the country for a few generations. Their familial ties to their country of origin weaken, while their ties and roots in the culture of their adopted country strengthen. Where do these people's citizenship come from? They certainly are more than mere visitors to a country at this point.

However, if they aren't citizens of the country of their birth, what country are they citizens of? The country of their parent's birth? A place they may have never even visited?

Well, if they live in the said country for a period of time, the country will eventually grant them citizenship. However what if I told you that I have a friend that is a US citizen, but has never lived there?
His mother and father were in the states at that time, his mother gave birth to him, and he was granted citizenship. Then they went back. He has no friends, no relatives, nothing whatsoever in the US.

Of course the best is to grant a child the citizenship of their parent's birthplace.

So second generation immigrants get citizenship, glad we cleared that up.
I bet if one of your minority parties took over and started massacring the majority (a deep rooted fear of yours, I'm sure), your buddy would be mighty happy about that dual citizenship he's got going for him. First flight out of Istanbul, please!

People of Italian ancestry are citizens of Italy by virtue of being born there, so how is supporting this same privilege for minorities in any way biased or special treatment?

Well, not by just being born there, they are born as Italians, on the accord that their ancestors were also Italians, and have been living in Italy for who knows how long.
This privilage should be in the hands of italians, since Italy is a nation state, built on the Italian ethnic identity.
Citizenship by birth is a new-world phenomena. Don't try to fuck up the old world with it.

Nay. This IS what is fucked up about the "old" world.

This is equal treatment of people without regard to their ethnic background.

Well, if you have that, what purpose is there to have a nation state at all? If there is equal treatment, perhaps the state of Italy should change its name to something that sounds more "egalitarian" and "foreign to the concept of ethnicity" and declare every minority language to have the same status as Italian.
You people are mad.

This is a slippery slope in full deployment. Perhaps instead of destruction of Italian society, there could be a balance reached of celebration of both "old" and "new" cultural influences. Simply granting foreign born immigrants citizenship, would not bring about the end of Italian culture. This is the mad idea, that by being more open is going to end a culture. Yes, a culture will change, but guess what? By having immigrants in a nation will change the culture, regardless if they have citizenship or not.

[kılıç_mehmet]

I'm not talking PM's or presidents, I'm talking about legislative bodies which represent the public. How can a legislature be representative if it doesn't include minority groups that are present in the general population?

Well "PM" or "MP" is short for "parliament member" or "Member of the Parliament" which is means they are a part of the legislative body which is the parliament.
If they have their own parties, or have, say independent candidates, and can actually dish out enough votes to send one to the parliament, why not.
But without votes, no seats. That's the way it works.

No. You have only lived in Turkey for your life. Your ancestors have lived there for generations.
Riddle me this: What happens when that Somali child grows up and has children? What about the citizenship of that child? Or that child's child? Their family has lived in the country for a few generations. Their familial ties to their country of origin weaken, while their ties and roots in the culture of their adopted country strengthen. Where do these people's citizenship come from? They certainly are more than mere visitors to a country at this point.

Neither did all of my ancestors. My maternal grandfather came here in his lifetime.
After the breakup of the Ottoman empire, we left a sizable Turkish minority in the Balkans(and also in Syria, Iraq, Georgia and Crimea), and we got them back after we founded the Turkish republic, with a population exchange. Indeed, he emigrated to the Balkans from this area I live in currently, but that was hundreds of years ago(I'll tell you the history part if you're interested). He has returned to the Turkish homeland here in Anatolia only after the population exchange. But it was due to that fact that he was able to come here, the fact that he was Turkish. Not only him, but Turks from Crimea, Kazan, and from distant Turkestan were granted citizenship on the account of being Turks, as a nation state is built on an ethnic identity, which makes it possible for people of the same ethnicity to come there even if they were not born within its borders(that's how my new zealand born cousin was able to claim citizenship.)
That's the idea, my friend.

The Somalian baby who is born here, if his parents stay here, will be granted citizenship after a certain term, if he is a legal immigrant of course, and if they have property, jobs and etc. will be taken into consideration when granting them citizenship or not. After that, both his/her parents and the child will be granted citizenship.
However just being born here will not grant you citizenship, and it shouldn't, in my opinion,.
If the Somalian child grows up and is able to have children in this country and his children are able to have children in this country, it would mean that he already got a citizenship in his prime years. Really, you cannot stay here illegally to see the birth of your grandchildren.
Also, your second point does not apply here. Even the minorities who have lived here for more then a hundred years still maintain ties to their homeland, they simply refuse to assimilate. Though it is probably worth mentioning that they have a strong ethnic consciousness, which an immigrant will lose after a while, as long as he doesn't form an own ethnic enclave somewhere in the country.
Besides, I'm just contesting the the right to citizenship for immigrants by simply being born on the soil.
If they're a citizen already, that's not my problem.

So second generation immigrants get citizenship, glad we cleared that up.
I bet if one of your minority parties took over and started massacring the majority (a deep rooted fear of yours, I'm sure), your buddy would be mighty happy about that dual citizenship he's got going for him. First flight out of Istanbul, please!

Well, first generation immigrants might also get citizenship, I didn't say that they couldn't. But with every country, there is a set of criteria to fulfill.
Besides, the minority party can't take over, but they certainly have themselves backed with threats of violence, as they maintain ties to armed terrorist groups within and outside of our borders, and I suspect that they have strong ties to Europe, Russia and Israel aswell. So they will use these to make us bow to their every demand. But they are quite the forgetful kind. I really don't wish to go through the trouble of reminding them who calls the shots here.
And well, I know that we have a lot of cowards here, mostly dem rich boys who go through a lot of trouble in order to skip their military duty. He is kind of wealthy, but I trust him to bear the burden when his time comes. He won't flee, but I'm sure quite a many people within our parliament will, in first sight of danger, as will many so-called "liberal intellectuals". May the eyes of cowards never sleep.

Nay. This IS what is fucked up about the "old" world.

The old world still has notions of nations, cultures, differences, languages. Which is why we form nations to be with people who are "like" us. Thankfully, Turkey has no influx of immigrants, though we got a lot of (arab)refugees(with many armed terrorists among them masquarading as refugees), whom will hopefully soon leave the country once this Syrian business is over. I hate refugees. We took up refugees during the Gulf War days. Now most of them have turned up to be ethnic seperatists and smugglers.
Well, that's what you get for being good.

This is a slippery slope in full deployment. Perhaps instead of destruction of Italian society, there could be a balance reached of celebration of both "old" and "new" cultural influences. Simply granting foreign born immigrants citizenship, would not bring about the end of Italian culture. This is the mad idea, that by being more open is going to end a culture. Yes, a culture will change, but guess what? By having immigrants in a nation will change the culture, regardless if they have citizenship or not.

I didn't say it would end the culture, though Italy isn't a primary choice for immigrants to go to in Europe. Just take a look at France and UK, and see for yourself what this lovely wave of immigration has brought them.
New cultural influences, yes, "enrichment" as the politicians speak of it. Now they have discussions about hijabs, riots, and outsourcing of jobs, and increased crime rates.
Angela Merkel has already stated that multiculturalism is a stillborn idea. It doesn't work. Either you go and assimilate in the culture of the majority, or you don't and cause trouble due to the conflicts that you experience with the culture of the majority there.
I went to Europe, I lived there, else I wouldn't be talking about it.

I say that citizenship should only be granted to those who have something to offer to the country, people with education and skills, like engineers, economists and doctors etc. But even then, I'd still not want those in my country, since they'd lead to an outsourcing of jobs for the natives.
That's a problem for especially the UK, which allows for easier immigration and employment to commonwealth countries, which is the reason that they have a lot of Indian/Pakistani doctors and computer engineers.
Wherever there is immgration, there are tensions. I know that you're a nice person and you'd like to think optimistic about things like these, but there are people that were simply not meant to live together side by side...

[Lucanus]

Immigration and integration of immigrants in Italy is a business of Italians, and the majority of the Italians thinks that it is right to make second generation immigrants who are born in Italy official Italian citizens, because they grow up as Italians, speak Italian (and even to some extent dialects) as their first language, attend Italian schools, have Italian friends and study Italian history.

If you Turks think about that in another way, well do whatever you wish.
But please, mind your own business, since you're so proud of your Turkish identity.

And calling people a chimpanzee because of the colour of their skin or because of their nationality is never justifiable, NEVER.