Abusive Theology 101

[Rahul]

Romans:

{3:23} For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God.

{6:23} For the wages of sin [is] death; but the gift of God [is] eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.

Hrm. This seems to say that all have sinned. And can not realize the glory of God except by accepting Christ. So your argument seems to be incorrect.

All have sinned. Even those indigenous tribes in South America who have never heard of Christianity.

All have sinned. Including a 1 year old child.

They've all sinned and have therefore come short of the glory of God. The only way to expunge that sin is through Christ.

Or they go to hell.

[John V]

Romans:

{3:23} For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God.

{6:23} For the wages of sin [is] death; but the gift of God [is] eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.

Hrm. This seems to say that all have sinned. And can not realize the glory of God except by accepting Christ. So your argument seems to be incorrect.

Which argument is that? I don't recall saying that there are people who don't sin.

All have sinned. Even those indigenous tribes in South America who have never heard of Christianity.

Yes, as I've noted, they are judged based on their own judgment of others.

All have sinned. Including a 1 year old child.

I subscribe to an age of accountability doctrine.

[Rahul]

Well you wouldn't come short of the glory of god if you weren't responsible for your sins due to ignorance.

The wages of sin is death (hell). It doesn't say the wages of sin if you were responsible for it because you knew better is death.

[John V]

Well you wouldn't come short of the glory of god if you weren't responsible for your sins due to ignorance.

I haven't argued that ignorance removes responsibility. Just the opposite, I showed Biblically how God judges despite ignorance. Maybe you're confusing me with another poster?

[Bad Writer]

How are we supposed to fear consignment to hell by imaginary transgressions called sins if you can't even demonstrate how Hell is a real place? Before we put any stock in your Holy Bible, you also need to demonstrate that there is a God and that it's the Judeo-Christian one. Until then, your claims are as relevant as the ones given by those who swear that Bigfoot is real.

[Godscreated]

Well you wouldn't come short of the glory of god if you weren't responsible for your sins due to ignorance.

The wages of sin is death (hell). It doesn't say the wages of sin if you were responsible for it because you knew better is death.

Wouldn't the verse you have given fit better to man, as seen in the light of God's promise to Adam and Eve, He did not mention hell to them.

[freedomfromforum]

Trying to fix a bad edit here.

[Locke]

On a side note, I want to clarify: The Bible does not teach that infants or children are guilty of sin - with pure intentions it is impossible to sin. Sin is essentially rebellion to God, and one must have full mental capability to understand the consequences of their sin to be guilty of it. Note, this accounts for accidental sin as well; I child cannot fully grasp the consequences of his/her actions, but for us (as I don't think my audience here includes children) we can commit a sin unknowingly, but are not held responsible unless we see it and decide not to change. If you want more clarification on specifics then pm me.
Suffice to say, the Bible teaches that we must take responsibility for our actions, and it also clarifies the differences between sin, and consequences of sin.

I would like the verses that state this.

Based on this knowledge, if someone is raised with no knowledge of the concept of god or sin, they will not be held responsible for any "sins" they commit their entire life. Therefore must not suffer the consequences of sin and be sent to hell.

However, the bible teaches that you have to accept Jesus as your personal savior in order to go to heaven.

So we have a conundrum on our hands.

@Rahul, Esquilax, and ITChick: You've all asked really good questions. I'm willing to discuss it and help it make sense, but I'm doing this from my phone and, quite honestly, I can't keep up with the posts in the thread. I really think there are too many voices and unresearched opinions here to have an intelligible discussion, so if you sincerely want to know, thrn please go to my profile and shoot me a pm or an email.

Thanks =)

[freedomfromforum]

Could you expound on that? I'd kinda like to know your position here before I disagree with it too harshly.

Not sure what you're looking for.

Romans 2
1 Therefore you are inexcusable, O man, whoever you are who judge, for in whatever you judge another you condemn yourself; for you who judge practice the same things.

Seems pretty clear. Lack of knowledge of the law is not an excuse if you judge other people and commit the same violations. The conscience part comes further on:

14 for when Gentiles, who do not have the law, by nature do the things in the law, these, although not having the law, are a law to themselves, 15 who show the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and between themselves their thoughts accusing or else excusing them)

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So if we're good people we don't go to hell but go to heaven? Sweet.

Key word there is "if."

Are you aware that in societies of gorillas in the wild, that if one member of the society steals something from another member or group, that they are kicked out (condemned)? Also, in that same society, if a mother gorilla neglects or abuses her child (gorilla) that the society will adopt the baby, and will punish the bad mother.

I ask you; where did they learn this justice system? Do they have a holy book somewhere we don't know about? No. They, to quote your book, "By nature do the things in the law, these, although not having the law, are a law to themselves, who show the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness."

TA DA! There you have it. We have developed these sets of 'laws' naturally. We humans, like other animals, just get it, and do not need to be told that we are evil for being natural. Natural selection has caused our species (humans) to thrive because of natural 'laws' that developed over millions of years; 'laws' that naturally govern the species, and not some god doing the law making (and condemning once those laws are broken).

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Trying to get a theist to open their eyes and see beyond the myth is like going full throttle in a mud race. It gets you nowhere and only makes a bigger mess.

What are my eyes supposed to be opened to? You portrayed atheists by a homeless man who is biting his nose to spite his face. I largely agree with you.

No. My tale portrays all people as wretched without your (christ's) 'salvation', which is what the bibble (dribble) teaches. That is the blindness I am speaking of; you clearly just don't see it. Also, in the parable, the homeless guy is a theist (christisn), and he's representative of most I know or have met. They (christians) love to get in people's faces and condemn them. Again, I don't subscribe to the irrational fears that you have sold your (soul) to purchase.

Thanks for the applause, though unlike theists, atheists don't do things to gain some ambiguous approval. This one is for you . It goes well with this one .

[John V]

Are you aware that in societies of gorillas in the wild, that if one member of the society steals something from another member or group, that they are kicked out (condemned)? Also, in that same society, if a mother gorilla neglects or abuses her child (gorilla) that the society will adopt the baby, and will punish the bad mother.

I ask you; where did they learn this justice system? Do they have a holy book somewhere we don't know about? No. They, to quote your book, "By nature do the things in the law, these, although not having the law, are a law to themselves, who show the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness."

TA DA! There you have it. We have developed these sets of 'laws' naturally. We humans, like other animals, just get it, and do not need to be told that we are evil for being natural.

Actually you just said that they do need to be told that they are evil for being natural. They condemn the thief, as you say yourself.

No. My tale portrays all people as wretched without your (christ's) 'salvation', which is what the bibble (dribble) teaches.
That is the blindness I am speaking of; you clearly just don't see it. Also, in the parable, the homeless guy is a theist (christisn), and he's representative of most I know or have met. They (christians) love to get in people's faces and condemn them. Again, I don't subscribe to the irrational fears that you have sold your (soul) to purchase.

In the parable, the Christian would accept the offer.

Thanks for the applause, though unlike theists, atheists don't do things to gain some ambiguous approval.

Oh please, there's kudos, reputation, annual awards - the atheists here love to give and receive approval. People in general like praise, and get upset if it isn't forthcoming when they think it's due.

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Natural selection has caused our species (humans) to thrive because of natural 'laws' that developed over millions of years; 'laws' that naturally govern the species, and not some god doing the law making (and condemning once those laws are broken).

Forgot to mention that, if there is no god, then the natural laws selected by evolution which enable our species to thrive include religious laws. So, what's your beef? You think ya know better than millions of years of evolution?