Proof of Christianity

[Locke]

We are discussing the same thing on two topics simultaneously.. it's confusing.

Let's move this to the other topic only, please.

EDIT: http://atheistforums.org/thread-20238-page-21.html

[Bad Writer]

I'm just fine being in both threads. It doesn't change my stance, and I actually prefer to give it in multiple places; my words get more screen time that way.

[Tea Earl Grey Hot]

If the Bible's validity can be proven to be externally free of contradiction (not contradicting with known historical events, geography etc.), internally free of contradiction (nothing in it that contradicts itself, which includes the writings of its over 40 authors, as well as Old Testament prophecies being foretold before they happened, and being fulfilled by Jesus), and it must be shown that it is reasonably accurate to the original writing (which is what was inspired by God) and that no point of doctrine or teaching has been changed.

If these criteria are met, then the Bible has good reason to be taken more seriously, especially if its claims are indeed true.

Does that sound rational?

Sure, it would give reason to take it more seriously but nothing you mentioned if true would necessitate the conclusion that Christianity is true. It's a non sequitur. Even if the bible was externally and internally consistent, even if it contained fulfilled prophecy, and even if scripture were preserved all of that gives no proof of the existence of the Christian God, the existence of heaven and hell, the existence of angels and demons and so on. Simpler explanations exist which by themselves are far fetched but in comparison to what Christianity asserts is easier (for me at least) to believe. I'll make up one: aliens did it. Life arose here by chance it seems and as big as the universe is it's not far fetched to postulate that life exists else where. Perhaps beings from an advanced civilation wanted to make up a religion and trick humans into believing it. Who knows why. Maybe they were alien sociologists doing experiments; maybe they were just spoiled teenager aliens doing it all for laughs. Sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic...or should I say, miracles? Anyways these aliens convinced the primitive Israelites they were angels and one of them pretended to be God. All those stories involving God and angels? They were all aliens.

Of course I don't believe any of that but assuming what you said, I think it's a more likely scenario. We have reason to believe life can arise else where. We don't have reason to believe however that supernatural beings such as angels and demons and supernatural things such as the soul and sin etc exist. Those things are just asserted by Christianity. Maybe Moses did see "God" on top of Mount Sinai and maybe "God" gave Moses stone tablets with commandments etched into them. I'm more inclined to think that Moses saw an alien.

Again I don't believe the ancient aliens theory. It's just an absurd idea still more plausible based on what we know than "God did it." I can make up an equally tantalizing story involving time travelers.

[Bad Writer]

Marty McFly and Doc Brown causing the start of the Hebrew religion would indeed be a fun scenario.

[Chas]

Sure, except the Bible is self-contradictory, unsupported by independent sources, and the alleged fulfilled prophecies are not supported.

So it is rational to dismiss it as evidence of anything real.

You're wrong on all three accounts - otherwise I wouldn't have reason to follow it

History, Biblical scholarship, textual criticism, archeology all prove your assertions incorrect.

[Locke]

Sure, it would give reason to take it more seriously but nothing you mentioned if true would necessitate the conclusion that Christianity is true. It's a non sequitur. Even if the bible was externally and internally consistent, even if it contained fulfilled prophecy, and even if scripture were preserved all of that gives no proof of the existence of the Christian God, the existence of heaven and hell, the existence of angels and demons and so on. Simpler explanations exist which by themselves are far fetched but in comparison to what Christianity asserts is easier (for me at least) to believe. I'll make up one: aliens did it. Life arose here by chance it seems and as big as the universe is it's not far fetched to postulate that life exists else where. Perhaps beings from an advanced civilation wanted to make up a religion and trick humans into believing it. Who knows why. Maybe they were alien sociologists doing experiments; maybe they were just spoiled teenager aliens doing it all for laughs. Sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic...or should I say, miracles? Anyways these aliens convinced the primitive Israelites they were angels and one of them pretended to be God. All those stories involving God and angels? They were all aliens.

Of course I don't believe any of that but assuming what you said, I think it's a more likely scenario. We have reason to believe life can arise else where. We don't have reason to believe however that supernatural beings such as angels and demons and supernatural things such as the soul and sin etc exist. Those things are just asserted by Christianity. Maybe Moses did see "God" on top of Mount Sinai and maybe "God" gave Moses stone tablets with commandments etched into them. I'm more inclined to think that Moses saw an alien.

Again I don't believe the ancient aliens theory. It's just an absurd idea still more plausible based on what we know than "God did it." I can make up an equally tantalizing story involving time travelers.

Once you see the evidence of all those things, the Bible can then itself be put to the test to see if what it says is true and produces results that can be repeated. It has been proven, over and over for thousands of years by those who are reasonable enough to put it to the test. It has literally never been wrong.

The more evidence I press, the less rational your argument. Admitting that God exists would force you to make a decision you don't want to make - to either radically alter your lifestyle, or face the consequences.
Giving such simple, elementary answers as, "Aliens and time travelers did it," it would seem you are the one living in a fairytale. Go ahead, live it up; the dream's almost over.

Hebrews 12:28-29 NIV
"Therefore, since we are receiving a kingdom that cannot be shaken, let us be thankful, and so worship God acceptably with reverence and awe, [29] for our 'God is a consuming fire.'"

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You're wrong on all three accounts - otherwise I wouldn't have reason to follow it

History, Biblical scholarship, textual criticism, archeology all prove your assertions incorrect.

That is false. The only thing proven false is the falsified evidence of dishonest individuals - the Word of God is trustworthy.

[Bad Wolf]

Once you see the evidence of all those things, the Bible can then itself be put to the test to see if what it says is true and produces results that can be repeated. It has been proven, over and over for thousands of years by those who are reasonable enough to put it to the test. It has literally never been wrong.

Are you a troll? What you just said is so completely stupid, i don't want to insult your intelligence by believing that you believe what you just said.

The more evidence I press, the less rational your argument.

What evidence?

Admitting that God exists would force you to make a decision you don't want to make - to either radically alter your lifestyle,

You do realise that atheists don't live their lives based on their disbelief in a god? What you don't seem to realise is that atheism is a tiny part in our lives. It is not a lifestyle and certainly not a world view.

or face the consequences.

Thanks for the threat there! I hope you realise that threatening an atheist with hell is like telling us Santa Claus isn't going to bring us presents this christmas

Giving such simple, elementary answers as, "Aliens and time travelers did it," it would seem you are the one living in a fairytale. Go ahead, live it up; the dream's almost over.

If you had bothered to actually read what he wrote you would know that is not what he meant.

[Chas]

History, Biblical scholarship, textual criticism, archeology all prove your assertions incorrect.

That is false. The only thing proven false is the falsified evidence of dishonest individuals - the Word of God is trustworthy.

Clearly there is no basis for discussion here. Your pre-suppositionalist mind is entirely closed.

[Bad Writer]

You said you came here looking for answers, Locke, but all you've proven is that you want to preach at us.

[CleanShavenJesus]

Sure, except the Bible is self-contradictory, unsupported by independent sources, and the alleged fulfilled prophecies are not supported.

So it is rational to dismiss it as evidence of anything real.

You're wrong on all three accounts - otherwise I wouldn't have reason to follow it

Ohh, I haven't done this in quite a while. Feels exciting.

1. You claim the Bible isn't self-contradictory. To be fair, Chas never exemplified the contradictions (I guess we like to assume people already know that they're there?) so let me assist his point. Hell, all you need is a simple Google search and a very think knowledge of the Bible, such as mine, to bring up these contradictions:

According to Genesis 1 (and part of 2), the order of creation of our world goes as such:
-Sky, Earth, light
-Water
-Plant-life
-Sun, Moon, stars
-Fish, birds, land animals reptiles, insects, etc.
-Man
-Then God takes the day off

But according to Genesis 2, the order of creation of our world goes as such:

-Earth and heavens
-Adam
-Plants
-Animals
-Eve (from Adam's rib)

Literally, the first two passages of the book contradict each other. But, I understand that criticism of the Old Testament does little to affect Christians. So we'll dive into the New Testament.

Hey, remember Jesus' "buddy" Judas? That prick. Thank God he died. ....how did he die again?

So Judas threw the money into the temple and left. Then he went away and hanged himself.

With the payment he received for his wickedness, Judas bought a field; there he fell headlong, his body burst open and all his intestines spilled out.

Well, I guess we'll never know. But these contradictions don't really affect the true meaning of the New Testament, I guess. Unless Jesus' "powers" come into question, such as Jesus' prediction regarding Peter's denial? When did he predict it would occur?

Before the cock crow

Before the cock crow twice

Well, I guess we'll never know. But you know, I don't have the time to point out every Biblical contradiction. So, here's a chart, labeling all 439 of them.

2. Unsupported my independent sources...that's one hundred percent true. I believe it is up to you to introduce these sources. But if you try introducing Flavius or Tacitus, we're going to have a good time.

3. What Biblical prophecies have been fulfilled? Why didn't you provide them? And by fulfilled prophecies, I don't mean prophecies stated earlier in the Bible that come true later in the Bible.


Locke, instead of just saying "Yes it's true. It's never been wrong. It's the Bible," try showing how it's always true and never been wrong. It's called a debate.