Abortion Viewed in Moral Terms

[Faith No More]

@FNM, have a look at the chart I posted. The heart is fully formed before 12 weeks, I thought that was your threshold, the heart?

The end of the first trimester is when the heartbeat can be detected(or so I was told), which is what I was basing it on. I fully admit it's an arbitrary line based on emotion, and I am equally open to being convinced there is a better point to draw it.

[NoraBrimstone]

What the fuck does the heart have to do with emotion? It's just a pump for blood. Why not base it on when the liver develops, or the kidneys? Or, more importantly, the brain?

[pineapplebunnybounce]

@FNM, I recommend you read up on embryology, instead of pregnancy info, to get some perspective. A fetal heart is actually very different from a baby's heart, and functions very differently as well, because the lungs don't work in a fetus. As for when a heart beat is detected, that has never been relevant for me, since a heartbeat is needed once the fetus gets big enough to facilitate blood transfusion, but before the heart was developed, the fetus was still there, still receiving oxygen through blood. As for detection, that's even less relevant, if a heart beat was there, but not detected, it's still there. So I'm not sure why that's where you choose to draw the line, but I agree that it probably is emotional, since you sound like you've been through a pregnancy.

[Faith No More]

What the fuck does the heart have to do with emotion? It's just a pump for blood. Why not base it on when the liver develops, or the kidneys? Or, more importantly, the brain?

My emotions, genius.

[Cyberdreams(Wink)]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rYRZgOhYNAY

[Kayenneh]

If abortion is indeed murder, then every potential human being that's wasted is murder too. So no more masturbating or having periods.

That's not what I said.

Quite right. That was my response to your question if abortion was illegal and could be called murder. Let me elaborate; murder is when a human plans and kills another human. Since I don't consider an underdeveloped fetus to be a fully grown human that can live outside the body of a mother, I say that all potential human life in that case is under the same scrutiny as the cell lump growing inside a woman. It doesn't matter that an egg cell or a sperm is haploid, they carry the blueprint fro a human being, thus with the logic of abortion being murder every sperm is sacred indeed.

[wwjs]

I understand what you mean. My problem was that FTWs' post seemed to suggest that the only thing that doesn't make abortion a murder is the fact that it's legal.

[Chas]

I'm not sure why you have fixated on the heartbeat. Usually the first ultrasound you do is around week 12, right? They also look for down syndrome in this ultrasound, by checking the thickness of the back of the fetus's neck. So this is quite crucial for parents who decide not to keep fetuses that would develop down syndrome. Even though the fetus has a heartbeat at this point, it still depends on the mother to oxygenate the blood. Which means the heartbeat doesn't have as significant a function as our heartbeats, because the fetus isn't able to oxygenate or excrete things in the blood. Just wondering if you've thought about this as well.

Sure, but why stop at twenty weeks then? An arbitrary line has to be drawn somewhere, and based on my experience, I draw it at the end of the first trimester.

What is your argument for placing it somewhere else?

ETA: Oh, and I forgot to add. We went through IVF, and at 12 weeks you are still under the care of the fertility doctor who is monitoring to see if the pregnancy is staying viable. You don't get an ultrasound until you are put under the care of the ob-gyn at the end of the first trimester.

Before 20 weeks there is no central nervous system, that's why .

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True, and I have gone through that myself. In fact, I'm just reminded that I was responsible for the discarding of two embryos, which is why, despite my rethinking of the issue, I do lean heavily towards, and will most likely conclude, allowing abortion in the first trimester fine.

What's the difference between first and second trimester, do you know? The cutoff point for legal abortion is currently set at 20 weeks, which is midway between 1st and 2nd. And are you leaning towards this because of your personal experience or some other things you're taking into account?

Um, no. It is midway through the 2nd.

[pineapplebunnybounce]

@Chas, second stops at 26 weeks, 20 weeks is between the last week of 1st and the last week of 2nd, is what I meant. Which I now realize sounds really confusing.

[Minimalist]

Legal in most cases. If a baby is 9 months and about to be born and the mother just wants to abort it because she feels like it and has no good reason then I don't think that should be allowed, but I am no moral judge.

Um, babies are not "born" at 9 months old. They are born at 0 and have to work their way up from there.