christian "love"

[genkaus]

Again, no.

Both you ( the one who says there is no God) and the son who says my 'father/God' is dead, have arrived at the same point or destination(your favorite spot on the beach) now the son who says the father is dead took the Interstate. And you who says there is no God took the back roads. Either way you want to look at it you both wound up in the same place. (Your favorite spot on the beach) meaning to both of you there is no God. You want to look at the sons journey and tell me your in a different place than he is, but your in the same place. So again it does not matter how you got to the beach, the fact of the matter is that you are there.

Again, no.

The places I and the son have arrived at are very, very different. The son does not deny his father's existence - he simply denies its relevance to his life. I do deny the father's existence. The son is very much aware of the fact that his father exists and is real - I am not. The son knows and understands that god exists and chooses to ignore it. I know and understand that he does not exist.

[Brakeman]

"Christian" Love does not exist. There is only normal human compassion if anything at all. Statistically, christian love has been shown to be undetectable in the marriage studies and in the prison population studies.

If christians did in fact have any contact whatsoever with an infinitely good god, then "SOME" of it would have to wear off on them! The effect should be strong as they would know that they are dealing with a "real" god.

Anecdotally, the worst human beings I've ever met in my life, the very most evil ones, were all men of strong christian faith. The worst child abusers that I've known were all three church pastors.

A Baptist preacher friend of my father's so angered and tortured his daughter over her lesbianism that her little brother ran out into the yard and set himself afire with gasoline to get them to stop arguing. He was 8 or 9 16 years old. The father felt so much remorse over the boy's death that he blew his brains out a year later. The mom went crazy. Why? Because GOD told the man to hate his beautiful young daughter who loved another girl.

Wow the news must have been all over that story, can you provide a link?

This event occurred about 1978 1982 or there abouts so no internet links that I'm aware of. I will ask my mom if she has any newpaper clippings. It did appear in the Maryville Daily Times. (TN) Their last name was Shumate.
I have several family pictures with the family and the little boy that burnt himself alive. I'll see if I can get a scan of those from my mom as well, because it really helps to put a face to the name and story. Then you can see what a beautiful, innocent child he was, and how precious his beloved gay sister was.

-update- I spoke with my Dad over the phone. He corrected a bit of detail on the story. I don't live in Tennessee anymore, so I'll have to wait on my mom to get home to try and get the article or the pictures..

---

Drich,

While I'm waiting, why don't you pray to jesus and ask him if Danny Shumate, the boy in the story, is in hell for loving his sister so much. I'd really really like to know what jesus has to say about his location right now.

[Tonus]

Again, no.

The places I and the son have arrived at are very, very different. The son does not deny his father's existence - he simply denies its relevance to his life. I do deny the father's existence. The son is very much aware of the fact that his father exists and is real - I am not. The son knows and understands that god exists and chooses to ignore it. I know and understand that he does not exist.

I think the most important thing is that you're both at the beach. I find it to be an apt analogy when the part about the beach is added.

[Brakeman]

I've got to make another correction to the story, it seems my memory isn't as good as I'd like it to be. The Dad didn't commit suicide, I got that confused with a deacon of the church evidently. The mom was the one that went crazy and killed herself a couple of years later. He died in 2006. I found his Obit.

SHUMATE, XXXX XXXXX - age 68 of Maryville, passed away Thursday September 7,
2006 at U.T. Medical Center. .. .. . Preceded in death by wife, Linda xxx
Shumate, son, Danny Shumate,

As a funny note, his family didn't list his first wife's name in his obit, the one stricken by grief, just his second wife Linda.

I knew the insides of the story because of my friendship with the daughter later in college. This was a huge catalyst in changing my (then) christian bigoted mind about gay people.

[Creed of Heresy]

Which means the son leaves salvation to live a life apart from the umbrella the father provides. Again he did not loose it as the story shows the son is free to return to the father's house at anytime. The boy just refuses to accept to live under his father so he is free to go and do as he pleases. As such he is also no longer under the father's protection, meaning he will be subject and held to account as the rest of the world will be.

I dunno what father you're talking about, but my father died when I was three years old and that's the only father I claim to have, given that he provided me with my genetics.

I don't recall a "god" strand being in our genetic chain.

A more fitting analogy: The son is born of his mother and father, and then an organization of reality-denying ascetics absconds him. They tell him he has a father, a different father, a more powerful and potent and all-knowing father, and bring him up using what they claim is his "father's" morals and teachings, without ever letting him see this "father." This "father" is completely absent from his life and he is merely told that he exists and that he must merely believe them because they claim it so. They provide journals and diaries supposedly written by this father, even though this father never makes mention of this stolen son, saying it MUST be him, because, hey, it's nobody else's handwriting, right? Take in mind, the son is never allowed to compare the handwriting of the members, he is just told that their handwriting styles are all different.

Eventually, the son gets sick of being told that this father figure loves him and cherishes him, because he has never seen a single shred of any kind of convincing evidence that he exists. Outside elements (people, personal observations, or maybe not outside; maybe it's his own deductive reasoning) finally show him just how unlikely it is that this father even exists; the people who abducted him are little more than cultists, trying to add more members to their group to accrue power and prestige and prominence.

He decides to leave. The threats of the "father's" retribution for doing so are at his back, but so, too, are the promises that if he comes back, he will be loved again. He looks upon the world outside the walls he has been forced to remain behind, and marvels at its trials, tribulations, beauty, cruelty, and unabashed honesty, and he realizes he has finally found his TRUE home; the world all about him.

This is the ACTUAL analogy, from the perspective of anyone who actually sees through the bullshit that Christians like you propagate. There is no "father." Those who were brought up in the Christian "family" were stolen from the real world and forced behind closed, gray walls and fed lies to keep them in line for the purpose of keeping a bunch of self-deluding liars thinking they have relevance while the world around them advances and continues on without their claims.

It's just sometimes, some of us realize that a father we are only told of and never shown in any context whatsoever and provided the most feeble semblances of "proof" of is a not a father who exists at all; he is just a shadowy element, a bogeyman created to keep us in line and within the kidnappers' views of what should be without any kind of valid backing whatsoever.

[Drich]

Seriously, it's not as if it's difficult to find. That you demand BCV for well known verses is a bit much. But, since you insisted -

'God is love'

1 John 4:8
1 John 4:16b

ok,

'God is jealous'

Exodus 20:5
Deuteronomy 5:9
Deuteronomy 6:15
1 Kings 19:10
1 Kings 19:14

Indeed.

'Love is not jealous'

1 Corinthians 13:4

4 Love suffers long and is kind; love does not envy; love does not parade itself, is not puffed up; 5 does not behave rudely, does not seek its own, is not provoked, thinks no evil; 6 does not rejoice in iniquity, but rejoices in the truth; 7 bears all things, believes all things, hopes all things, endures all things.

So, where in 1 cor 13 does it say God is bound to this expectation of love?

Paul is Clearly speaking to the people of Corinth about the "Love your neighbor as your self" command and how this trumps all other Spiritual gifts... In order for your arguement to work you must show that what Paul says to us, applies to God.

---

God describes Himself as "I am" which means God is whom ever He wants to be. Not the being we think should be God.

I think what you mean is "this is my excuse for not having to defend the logical inconsistencies in my beliefs."

Your answer is a complete cop-out.

Ah, no. In My believe God does not repersent Himself the way you explained. So there is not inconsistency. Again you guys have created your own version of God not consistant with the biblical account and then throw stones at the inconsistancies you have created in your God.

Your failures in your version of God are not on me to explain, even if your version of God is based on some christian version of God.

---

Again, no.

Both you ( the one who says there is no God) and the son who says my 'father/God' is dead, have arrived at the same point or destination(your favorite spot on the beach) now the son who says the father is dead took the Interstate. And you who says there is no God took the back roads. Either way you want to look at it you both wound up in the same place. (Your favorite spot on the beach) meaning to both of you there is no God. You want to look at the sons journey and tell me your in a different place than he is, but your in the same place. So again it does not matter how you got to the beach, the fact of the matter is that you are there.

Again, no.

The places I and the son have arrived at are very, very different. The son does not deny his father's existence - he simply denies its relevance to his life. I do deny the father's existence. The son is very much aware of the fact that his father exists and is real - I am not. The son knows and understands that god exists and chooses to ignore it. I know and understand that he does not exist.

But in the end You and the prodigal son have no father for one reason or another is that correct?

To put it another way, There is no 'Overseer' you are accountable to is there?

If you don't then you are in the same place. It's like one kid father dying when he was 4, and the other one never knew he even had a father. either way they will grow up without knowing their dad.

---

Wow the news must have been all over that story, can you provide a link?

This event occurred about 1978 1982 or there abouts so no internet links that I'm aware of. I will ask my mom if she has any newpaper clippings. It did appear in the Maryville Daily Times. (TN) Their last name was Shumate.
I have several family pictures with the family and the little boy that burnt himself alive. I'll see if I can get a scan of those from my mom as well, because it really helps to put a face to the name and story. Then you can see what a beautiful, innocent child he was, and how precious his beloved gay sister was.

-update- I spoke with my Dad over the phone. He corrected a bit of detail on the story. I don't live in Tennessee anymore, so I'll have to wait on my mom to get home to try and get the article or the pictures..

---

Drich,

While I'm waiting, why don't you pray to jesus and ask him if Danny Shumate, the boy in the story, is in hell for loving his sister so much. I'd really really like to know what jesus has to say about his location right now.

Of course there is no proof! Why would there be??

The only reason I asked you for proof is because you have a history of saying whatever you need to say, no matter if it is true or not. I just wanted to see what you would come up with to explain yourself this time.

This event occurred about 1978 1982

The line/correction really sold it... out.

---

I've got to make another correction to the story, it seems my memory isn't as good as I'd like it to be. The Dad didn't commit suicide, I got that confused with a deacon of the church evidently. The mom was the one that went crazy and killed herself a couple of years later. He died in 2006. I found his Obit.

SHUMATE, XXXX XXXXX - age 68 of Maryville, passed away Thursday September 7,
2006 at U.T. Medical Center. .. .. . Preceded in death by wife, Linda xxx
Shumate, son, Danny Shumate,

As a funny note, his family didn't list his first wife's name in his obit, the one stricken by grief, just his second wife Linda.

I knew the insides of the story because of my friendship with the daughter later in college. This was a huge catalyst in changing my (then) christian bigoted mind about gay people.

again, proof? A Link to an actual artical or will you line out the year and tell me "this happened in the 60's before they started to document crime."

---

I dunno what father you're talking about, but my father died when I was three years old and that's the only father I claim to have, given that he provided me with my genetics.

The Parable of the Lost Son
11 Jesus continued: “There was a man who had two sons. 12 The younger one said to his father, ‘Father, give me my share of the estate.’ So he divided his property between them.

13 “Not long after that, the younger son got together all he had, set off for a distant country and there squandered his wealth in wild living. 14 After he had spent everything, there was a severe famine in that whole country, and he began to be in need. 15 So he went and hired himself out to a citizen of that country, who sent him to his fields to feed pigs. 16 He longed to fill his stomach with the pods that the pigs were eating, but no one gave him anything.

17 “When he came to his senses, he said, ‘How many of my father’s hired servants have food to spare, and here I am starving to death! 18 I will set out and go back to my father and say to him: Father, I have sinned against heaven and against you. 19 I am no longer worthy to be called your son; make me like one of your hired servants.’ 20 So he got up and went to his father.

“But while he was still a long way off, his father saw him and was filled with compassion for him; he ran to his son, threw his arms around him and kissed him.

21 “The son said to him, ‘Father, I have sinned against heaven and against you. I am no longer worthy to be called your son.’

22 “But the father said to his servants, ‘Quick! Bring the best robe and put it on him. Put a ring on his finger and sandals on his feet. 23 Bring the fattened calf and kill it. Let’s have a feast and celebrate. 24 For this son of mine was dead and is alive again; he was lost and is found.’ So they began to celebrate.

25 “Meanwhile, the older son was in the field. When he came near the house, he heard music and dancing. 26 So he called one of the servants and asked him what was going on. 27 ‘Your brother has come,’ he replied, ‘and your father has killed the fattened calf because he has him back safe and sound.’

28 “The older brother became angry and refused to go in. So his father went out and pleaded with him. 29 But he answered his father, ‘Look! All these years I’ve been slaving for you and never disobeyed your orders. Yet you never gave me even a young goat so I could celebrate with my friends. 30 But when this son of yours who has squandered your property with prostitutes comes home, you kill the fattened calf for him!’

31 “‘My son,’ the father said, ‘you are always with me, and everything I have is yours. 32 But we had to celebrate and be glad, because this brother of yours was dead and is alive again; he was lost and is found.’”

[genkaus]

But in the end You and the prodigal son have no father for one reason or another is that correct?

No. The son does have a father whom he chooses to ignore.

To put it another way, There is no 'Overseer' you are accountable to is there?

True for me. Not for the prodigal son.

If you don't then you are in the same place. It's like one kid father dying when he was 4, and the other one never knew he even had a father. either way they will grow up without knowing their dad.

Which is why we are not in the same place. There is a big difference between choosing not to recognize a possible authority and denying the existence of such an authority outright.

[Jackalope]

Seriously, it's not as if it's difficult to find. That you demand BCV for well known verses is a bit much. But, since you insisted -

'God is love'

1 John 4:8
1 John 4:16b

ok,

'God is jealous'

Exodus 20:5
Deuteronomy 5:9
Deuteronomy 6:15
1 Kings 19:10
1 Kings 19:14

Indeed.

'Love is not jealous'

1 Corinthians 13:4

4 Love suffers long and is kind; love does not envy; love does not parade itself, is not puffed up; 5 does not behave rudely, does not seek its own, is not provoked, thinks no evil; 6 does not rejoice in iniquity, but rejoices in the truth; 7 bears all things, believes all things, hopes all things, endures all things.

So, where in 1 cor 13 does it say God is bound to this expectation of love?

Paul is Clearly speaking to the people of Corinth about the "Love your neighbor as your self" command and how this trumps all other Spiritual gifts... In order for your arguement to work you must show that what Paul says to us, applies to God.

Let's cut to the chase, Drich. What you appear to be saying is that "jealousy" is not a property of love as it applies to us, but it could be when applied to your god, who is not described as possessing love, but rather BEING love?

Seriously? And you guys wonder why we say you can make the damn book say anything you want it to.

[Bad Writer]

If I wanted to start a religion about the importance of not wearing underwear, I bet I could twist the words of the Bible to do just that.

[Mister Agenda]

This event occurred about 1978 1982 or there abouts so no internet links that I'm aware of. I will ask my mom if she has any newpaper clippings. It did appear in the Maryville Daily Times. (TN) Their last name was Shumate.
I have several family pictures with the family and the little boy that burnt himself alive. I'll see if I can get a scan of those from my mom as well, because it really helps to put a face to the name and story. Then you can see what a beautiful, innocent child he was, and how precious his beloved gay sister was.

-update- I spoke with my Dad over the phone. He corrected a bit of detail on the story. I don't live in Tennessee anymore, so I'll have to wait on my mom to get home to try and get the article or the pictures..

---

Drich,

While I'm waiting, why don't you pray to jesus and ask him if Danny Shumate, the boy in the story, is in hell for loving his sister so much. I'd really really like to know what jesus has to say about his location right now.

Of course there is no proof! Why would there be??

The only reason I asked you for proof is because you have a history of saying whatever you need to say, no matter if it is true or not. I just wanted to see what you would come up with to explain yourself this time.

I've learned from experience that someone who takes pains to correct their mistakes tends to be honest in general and someone quick to judge someone a liar is usually a liar themselves.

If Brakeman's story is true, where do you suppose Danny Shumate is right now?