Yet another school shooting

[Napoléon]

This is getting sickening, guys. When the entire thread is just everyone bitching about guns without actually talking about the tragedy itself, or the incident itself? You guys might wanna check your priorities; because if you're discussing the politics before you're discussing the incident itself? You've already fucked up as an empathetic individual.

Oh give me a fucking break.

People can and will bring up whatever issues they please. Doesn't mean they aren't sympathetic. To some people the issues they bring up are to try and solve the problem so that children never have to die in such a horrific way. Did that ever occur to you?

No, you just get hung up on the fact you don't agree when people bring up an issue with gun control in your country. That doesn't make you feel comfortable, does it?

Just because you disagree with the fact that people bring it up, doesn't mean what they're saying is "messed up" etc.

Nor does it mean they don't care about the victims, in fact, it's quite the opposite.


And as for this:

I like how nobody notices that the man was charged with "possession of a firearm by a convicted felon."

He did not come by that firearm legally. You really think gun control laws would've done anything to stop this guy? No. The gun itself is illegal to own in the US under the assault rifle ban. AK-47s are illegal to purchase. I own one myself but I have it fully registered and track-logged, and purchased it before the AR ban. THIS guy, however? I somehow doubt he got this gun legitimately.

No shit! He didn't get it legally? OMG well that just immediately invalidates everyone's points about gun control! Right? RIGHT?!?

Criminals don't care about the law? REALLY????

You think because guns are illegal to carry in the UK we automatically have no gun related deaths or shootings? Ofcourse not. You said that yourself. No one has said he got the gun legally, but it doesn't invalidate the proposition that better regulation and control of guns in America would of perhaps made it harder for him to access such a gun.

If you want to compare the UK and USA like you so conveniently brought up, take a look at the comparison of gun related deaths in both countries.

Here, in case you can't be arsed to do it yourself: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_cou...death_rate

No one here to the best of my knowledge has said better gun control would stop these incidents from happening, but I'd bet my life that it would stop them from being such a common occurrence.

Now I don't personally know how he got hold of such a weapon, could be you're right, and he went to some illegal black market to purchase his gun, something gun regulation wouldn't really help (which is probably still debatable, but I'll concede that one if you like). Or he got it off a legitimate gun owner who was careless in keeping it. Now if he say stole it off someone who should of kept that gun in a gun safe but didn't, I'd turn to you and ask why someone had such a gun in the first place, and why it wasn't better looked after. Then I'd try and suggest ways to make the place a bit safer. But here's the thing, none of this means that I don't give a fuck about those kids who were shot. So get off your god damn moral high horse.

To me, it's you who has "whacked out priorities".

If there is a problem I personally tend to look for solutions, rather than dwell on the problem. Guess I've "fucked up as an empathetic individual" eh?

---

And for the record, when I say "I tend look for solutions", I just think better gun control is one of those potential solutions.

[Creed of Heresy]

Oh give me a fucking break.

People can and will bring up whatever issues they please. Doesn't mean they aren't sympathetic. To some people the issues they bring up are to try and solve the problem so that children never have to die in such a horrific way. Did that ever occur to you?

Really? So the fact that everyone immediately starts talking about the political issues rather than talking about the incident itself is just nothing, right? I see more hatred and vitriol to the subject of firearms than I do towards the people perpetrating the crimes. Here we have a shooting where nobody was even hurt and it immediately goes to the subject of how firearms make it so much more lethal than any other means. Not a good example. It would occur to me that people are trying to solve the problems if people brought up any other ideas. I think me, Brakeman, and one other person who isn't readily coming to mind at the moment are the only ones who have ever started discussing issues other than gun control to prevent this shit from happening. Where the fuck have YOU ever said otherwise?

No, you just get hung up on the fact you don't agree when people bring up an issue with gun control in your country. That doesn't make you feel comfortable, does it?

It has nothing to do with my comfort. I couldn't give a shit less about possessing a firearm or not anymore; I don't live in a busted-up ghetto and I have other means of occupying my time than the shooting range. My issue is not with gun control, it's with the fact it's the thing people cling to the most as opposed to other methods of preventing this from happening, and that the details of said gun control almost never get discussed in any reasonable context outside of just "WE NEED IT." No shit Sherlockses, of course we need it, but in what way, to what extent, and how do we go about implementing it?

Just because you disagree with the fact that people bring it up, doesn't mean what they're saying is "messed up" etc.

Again, it's because it's ALL THEY FUCKING BRING UP. I'm tired of people whining about guns constantly instead of going "what the fuck is causing this shit, and how do we stop it?"

[quoteNor does it mean they don't care about the victims, in fact, it's quite the opposite.[/quote]

If you'd read my second post, you would have realized I corrected myself about that and had merely spoken in haste.

No shit! He didn't get it legally? OMG well that just immediately invalidates everyone's points about gun control! Right? RIGHT?!?

First, calm down, you're getting even more worked up than I am (no easy feat), and second of all, YEAH. KIND OF. If gun control laws that outright state he cannot purchase it legally didn't prevent him from getting this gun...then what the fuck kind of gun controls would? I would be interested in hearing any ideas instead of just the usual "we need more gun control laws!" That's great, I'm all on board with this, and this will address what follows below...which I will continue when I quote that, in fact.

Criminals don't care about the law? REALLY????

You think because guns are illegal to carry in the UK we automatically have no gun related deaths or shootings? Ofcourse not. You said that yourself. No one has said he got the gun legally, but it doesn't invalidate the proposition that better regulation and control of guns in America would of perhaps made it harder for him to access such a gun.

...Why would you say "You think because..." and then immediately follow with "you said that yourself." Clearly I don't think that and you know it. ._. However, we are in agreement; there is a need for better regulation and a means of more closely tracking firearm possession.

Quick aside and something I would like to actually discuss with everyone; a suggestion that there is a yearly check required for every firearm possessed wherein proof of firearm possession or certificate of sale must be presented to, say, the ATF; failure to provide results in a $5,000 fine; theft of the weapon does not prevent this fine because this would demonstrate that the weapon was not secured sufficiently, which is gross negligence on the part of the owner.

If you want to compare the UK and USA like you so conveniently brought up, take a look at the comparison of gun related deaths in both countries.

Here, in case you can't be arsed to do it yourself: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_cou...death_rate

No one here to the best of my knowledge has said better gun control would stop these incidents from happening, but I'd bet my life that it would stop them from being such a common occurrence.

That's a fine list and all but it doesn't take into account every other act of homicide, nor does it factor into account poverty and mental health considerations. And, by the way, if you want to talk about common occurrences of these school butcherings?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_att...ry_schools

Look at all those ones listed from China involving nothing but knives. Sweet tittyfucking shit, it looks like it happens three times a damn month these days. Here's a strange thing, though...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_att...ry_schools

Notice how many more incidents happen involving secondary schools (I think that's grades 9-12, right?). Most of them are caused by juveniles with guns, from which I think we can safely infer that these are likely taken from their parents...which again lends itself to my previous proposition that there must be something ensure that gun owners take the idea of securing their weapons MUCH more seriously than they currently do.

Now I don't personally know how he got hold of such a weapon, could be you're right, and he went to some illegal black market to purchase his gun, something gun regulation wouldn't really help (which is probably still debatable, but I'll concede that one if you like). Or he got it off a legitimate gun owner who was careless in keeping it. Now if he say stole it off someone who should of kept that gun in a gun safe but didn't, I'd turn to you and ask why someone had such a gun in the first place, and why it wasn't better looked after. Then I'd try and suggest ways to make the place a bit safer. But here's the thing, none of this means that I don't give a fuck about those kids who were shot. So get off your god damn moral high horse.

I'll get off my moral high horse when people stop whining about the guns, and start actually putting forth some ideas on how to take care of this problem. Some TANGIBLE ideas. Not just "guns are bad mm-k?" shit, I tire of hearing that, all it sounds like to me is political whining and I'm sick of hearing it.

To me, it's you who has "whacked out priorities".

I didn't see you putting forth any ideas, either. I've come up with this shit in other threads, I've asked for discussion on it, I've never gotten a fucking thing, nobody has ever discussed this shit, they just keep bitching about how guns are bad and how gun control laws are good without ever providing any details on anything. So, yeah, I TOTALLY have whacked-out priorities, right? Give me a fucking break, Napo.

If there is a problem I personally tend to look for solutions, rather than dwell on the problem. Guess I've "fucked up as an empathetic individual" eh?

Then for goodness' sake, let's look for the solutions. We're grown-ass men, let's discuss this shit! If you're willing to, I'd be extremely eager to talk about this stuff and trade ideas.

And for the record, when I say "I tend look for solutions", I just think better gun control is one of those potential solutions.

I agree. It IS just one. It's one we certainly need to focus on, but just saying "gun controls are good" isn't really enough.

See, that's why I think the gun-control lobby is doing so piss-poor against the gun-ownership lobby. It has nothing to do with money, even though that's part of it. The problem is that the gun-control lobby can never manage to really make a coherent argument. Everyone comes to the table going "GUN CONTROL, GUN CONTROL, WHOO HOO GUN CONTROL!" but then...there's never any agreement. The ideas are all over the place or haphazard or half-assed and sometimes they're designed to do little more than rile up the NRA.

Personally, I find "appealing to the opposition" so to speak, in this case, could be very feasible, and would work a lot better. Convince the NRA that the measures will NOT be eating into rifle or handgun sales, but rather will be bolstering responsibility and safety (which can in turn make the whole gun-ownership thing taken even more seriously, with NRA members becoming much more intense and intelligent about everything, which can in turn result in a more reliable membership base), and they probably won't go all "FRUM URR CULD, DURRD HURRNDS" every time the discussion comes up.

I personally don't give a rat's ass what kinda gun someone owns. You wanna own a .50-caliber anti-materiel rifle? Well, did you clear a background check, a mental health check, and pass an extensive test on gun safety and responsibility, and did you purchase the necessary equipment to secure it and ensure it stays out of the hands of anyone but yourself? Yes? Then cool, fine, enjoy your boomstick. No? Rejected, and depending on the situation, you may or may not try again later.

People get all riled up when they're gun owners because of the idea of having to make gun ownership so much more difficult but seriously, I've been in possession of firearms of all kinds for quite a long damn time. Many of which, I did not acquire legally, and I realize just how easy it is to get this shit on the streets when our piss-poor controls and regulations fail. I've since registered them all, and I keep them under lock and key. Yes, I went through the hell of registering illegally-obtained firearms with the ATF and ensuring they are kept secured from anyone but me. If I can do it, so can anyone else, and anyone who wants to complain is fucking lazy and irresponsible and not respecting just what it is they are carrying in their hands.

Guns are no fucking joke, they're not toys, they're not something you are supposed to take lightly. I'm sick of these yahoo cowboys slinging guns around like they're movie props and thinking they look cool when all they look like is a bunch of children playing at being adults. "I hide mine in a SHUUBAWKS in mah closiit cuz dat gonn' keep dem safe from mah keeyids, hyuk hyuk hyuk!" No you fucking idiot, all it takes is the kid having two connected brain cells to guess where the fuck mommy and daddy's controlled-explosion-in-a-metal-tube is hidden and suddenly little Jimmy's just ventilated his best friend at the age of five. A shoebox isn't sufficient, nor is just hiding it.

Buy a fucking safe, or a locker, and keep that shit stowed the fuck away! Hell, it's better that way if you get a locker; get one of those controlled-environment ones like I've got for an extra $50, keeps your shit in better condition for longer AND it keeps it out of the hands of other people. You ever try to break into one of those things? The shit you would need to do so would make the guns you're trying to get at look like butter knives!

So, yeah, those are my ideas, and I want people to discuss them with me.

[Napoléon]

Rather than respond to every sentence and turn this into a gigantic back and forth bollocks fest (not being insulting just saying), I'm just gonna respond in one go, if that's ok.

First off, I think people bring up the issue with guns for one reason, because it's something a lot of people seem to disagree on. Am I right? People could just as easily put forward that we need to do something about mental health issues (and they do, like yourself) with regards to solving the apparent problem, but I think everyone is already in agreement on that, so it's not something that will get brought up on a forum as much. Sure individual ideas can be discussed like you mention, but for the most part, everyone is already in agreement that helping to better mental health is a good idea.

Guns on the other hand seem to be a point of contention, at least from what I seem to see. The vibe that I get (as a foreigner, yes) is that there are many Americans with the 'gun-ho' attitude of "don't take away my guns, gun's aren't the problem, NRA, NRA!". Not saying everyone is like that, but it's precisely these particular people that make me want to speak up about it, and all my aim is, is to get people to realise that they are an issue. Maybe I'm doing a bad job, but I'm allowed to try, sorry if that makes me a deplorable human being with fucked up priorities.

It also doesn't mean I hate guns, guns are just pieces of material. The people with the brick wall attitude that they aren't something to do with the problem is what gets my goat, and again, it's for this reason I occasionally say my piece. IMO guns are brought up not because "the control lobby" or whatever you called it is so against them, or that they are fixated with removing people's rights or some other such bollocks, but I find it's simply because of the brazen ignorance certain others seem to display when 'defending' guns. From what I can tell, these are the only times I've ever personally got involved in conversations on the subject.

And most importantly, it also doesn't mean that I don't give a shit about those dead children.


You then seek to discredit me on the basis I haven't been as involved as you when discussing other possible solutions to the problem. Again, this doesn't make any of my points any less valid, just means you should give yourself and Brakeman and the other guy a pat on the back.

Your other point is that no one on the 'control lobby' side has any ideas.

Here's one.

Ban them.


Unlike a few other people I'm not of the opinion that gun ownership is a right, but that's just me, and it's my opinion. You're moaning that nobody is coming up with any ideas, but is the discussion even at that point? Last I checked not everyone even agreed that gun control was necessary, so before you start moaning that not enough ideas are being put forward, how about trying to argue that gun control is necessary in the first place, because it wasn't immediately clear to me from your first response that you were pro-control. But oh wait. I am arguing that. Other people are arguing that. But when they do, it's "oh noes a political agenda". Can't win.


The two things from wikipedia you listed just show incidents listed one after the other. Don't see the relevance of that. What does it prove? That gun incidents in secondary schools happen? Since when did anyone deny it? Maybe I'm missing something.


I'd have to say I agree with much of the final part of your post, about appealing to the opposition. But again, that doesn't seem to be the point of contention, not for me at least. My contention is when people act like guns are a non-issue, hence why the same arguments and trails of thought are always brought up, and no real tangible ideas are come up with like you rightly call for.

[Creed of Heresy]

The problem is [to keep this short and sweet] is that banning them is unrealistic. It's just never going to happen at all under any circumstances. Too many Americans own guns [large voting bloc], too much money is in the firearm industry [an economic and lobbying concern], and too many guns exist in this country [there would be no way to remove even a tenth of them from the population]. We need a more realistic option. Imposing new regulations and requirements for registration would not be an immediate means of solving the problem, but it's one that IS realistic...and any currently-registered firearm could be easily transferred into such a program. As for the guns that are already in illegal circulation, well, this registry system could help track what weapon goes where, and hopefully pinpoint guns in improper hands.

The wikipedia article was just to show in which cases shootings happen more in. There was five listings, in fact, and one thing I noticed was that it happened mostly in high schools, and usually by a disgruntled or ostracized student, which, as we all know, IS a very glaring problem and has a lot to do with our education system needing better funding and retooling. They need to start making class sizes much smaller and allow for greater focus and more discipline in the classrooms, for one thing.

Also you are very correct, there is very much a sentiment among NRA members wherein they become obsessively and excessively vehement about anyone touching their guns, but if you can show them that they can keep their guns and that they just need to provide registry and responsibility, they'll probably be much more accommodating to the idea than saying "get rid of guns." They won't go for that.

I think the first step for gun-control would be to appeal to opposition and come to agreements without entering into the whole "legislation first, discussion second" mentality that suddenly swept the nation after the latest school shootings. Too many knee-jerk reactions all around, no wonder barely any of it [in fact I don't think any of it did, did it?] went through.

[CleanShavenJesus]

I keep having to repeat myself repeat myself repeat myself repeat myself repeat myself repeat myself repeat myself repeat myself repeat myself repeat myself repeat myself repeat myself repeat myself repeat myself repeat myself repeat myself repeat myself repeat myself repeat myself repeat myself: CRIMINALS DON'T GIVE A FUCK ABOUT WHETHER OR NOT YOU BAN GUNS. Nora Brimstone was just talking about a girl who was shot to death on her street in England. You know, that nation that completely DOES NOT allow firearms? WOW, HOW STRANGE, IT'S ALMOST LIKE CRIMINALS DON'T FUCKING CARE ABOUT THE LAW OR SOMETHING. Gasp, choke, stare-with-wide-eyes-and-gaping-mouth-in-shock!

It's also strange how many more instances of gun violence there are in America than the UK. It's almost like....the gun control laws worked, or something.

Also, the term "gun control" doesn't mean "ban all the guns." That horrible misunderstanding of the term is one of the reasons a simple background check bill didn't get passed in congress earlier this year.

I'm getting a little sick of these threads instantly being used as political statements by the members of this forum. Not ONE PERSON HERE says something like "thank goodness NO CHILDREN WERE HURT OR KILLED (which kind of negates the whole "guns will make it easy" everyone is saying when a guy with one of the most lethal ARs in existence fails to even injure someone despite shooting repeatedly), it's a good thing this wasn't a tragedy and was instead just a disturbance at a school!"

Since this thing is becoming so common around here, I guess I'm just sick of everyone sitting, mopping around and doing nothing. Instances like this should immediately go to a gun debate. This country has to prevent future instances from happening.

Also, it doesn't negate shit. Many children have been injured and/or killed by rampages like this one. Because an assault rifle gives you better odds of murdering a number of people than a knife. These people were lucky.

This is getting sickening, guys. When the entire thread is just everyone bitching about guns without actually talking about the tragedy itself, or the incident itself? You guys might wanna check your priorities; because if you're discussing the politics before you're discussing the incident itself? You've already fucked up as an empathetic individual.

Right. I have no empathy because I want to put an end to events like this one. Quite logical.

It doesn't matter how the psychopath ended the lives; the fact of the matter is that the person just ended the lives of innocents.

Where do you get that from? Of course it matters, if you want to try to prevent future instances like this one!

I don't care if it was by a machete or pipe bombs or assault rifles or home-made chemical-bombs; killing is killing.

When was the last time there was a school macheting or a school chemical-bombing? And how frequently do they occur? As opposed to shootings?

[Creed of Heresy]

Please read the above exchange.

[CleanShavenJesus]

Sorry, I was writing my post while those went up. Although I believe a few of my points still stand.

I, myself, don't believe in banning all guns in America. It can't happen. Hell, we're only one of two countries in the world whose right to bear arms in stoned into our constitution. It could never work. To start, my idea of a working gun legislation is as follows: rigorous background checks, psychological evaluations of not just the person purchasing the gun but also of every person living in the home where the gun will be stored, and a government agent who will check your home to see if it's a proper home for a firearm and that there is no chance of a child or anyone else being able to gain access to the gun, which includes making sure your gun is properly sealed, etc. (I see it similar to an official from an adoption agency making sure the home is a suitable environment for an adopted child).

It's a lot, but I think it could have a positive effect. Of course, if a background check bill won't pass, none of my ideas could pass either.

[Creed of Heresy]

Sorry, I was writing my post while those went up. Although I believe a few of my points still stand.

It's cool. Which points would you like to discuss?

I, myself, don't believe in banning all guns in America. It can't happen. Hell, we're only one of two countries in the world whose right to bear arms in stoned into our constitution. It could never work. To start, my idea of a working gun legislation is as follows: rigorous background checks, psychological evaluations of not just the person purchasing the gun but also of every person living in the home where the gun will be stored, and a government agent who will check your home to see if it's a proper home for a firearm and that there is no chance of a child or anyone else being able to gain access to the gun, which includes making sure your gun is properly sealed, etc. (I see it similar to an official from an adoption agency making sure the home is a suitable environment for an adopted child).

Bolding is mine so I can say: FUCK THE HELL YES.

It's a lot, but I think it could have a positive effect. Of course, if a background check bill won't pass, none of my ideas could pass either.

It's a lot, yeah, but we as a nation need to start taking better responsibility of firearms. Before, it wasn't necessary, because a musket or black-powder rifle/pistol took forever to reload and as such didn't pose so much of a thread to large numbers of people. But weapons have evolved. An assault rifle can spit out 500+ rounds per minute, and some can shoot even faster. We have submachine-guns, light machine guns, heavy machine guns...the deceptively-named minigun. Weapons have evolved, and so, too, much our right to possess such weaponry. It can still be allowed...but we've gotta start getting sensible about it.

And you know what? I say this knowing full well that such legislation may very well mean having to surrender my own firearms. I'm diagnosed bipolar; apparently such mental conditions are grounds for rejection for permits nowadays. But, it doesn't matter. This is a problem that involves the lives of other people. The fact a nutjob can stroll casually into a school, unchallenged, with an assault rifle and start hosing people down? It's gotta be remedied.

[CleanShavenJesus]

Sorry, I was writing my post while those went up. Although I believe a few of my points still stand.

It's cool. Which points would you like to discuss?

The "it doesn't matter how the psychopath ended lives" thing. I guess we've reached somewhat of an agreement on that now, though, so...never mind. Hahaha.

[Creed of Heresy]

One big thing, too, is that we need to consider who of the mental disorder field are the biggest instances of these kinds of rampages. One thing I've noticed is that quite often, the individuals seem to be suffering from a form of psychosis, schizophrenia, and sociopathic tendencies. One big thing I've found is that schizophrenics or anyone in that realm who refuses to take their medications should probably be admitted into a mental institution. I know that seems kind of harsh, but honestly? When my schizo room-mate starts talking about how we should "just nuke the fuck out of Syria" and how he wants to piss on the grave of some guy he shot in self-defense, and how "black people are nazis" after getting banned from a rap forum for repeatedly posting snuff images involving children that he found on the internet for the sake of provocation?

Yeah... And then he's talking about buying another gun. H'oookay, I'll say it straight; he better be denied from being able to do so if he tries.