Satan Disproves Christianity

[John V]

Perhaps it did but the false teachings of Christianity supplanted it or something because you were born in the wrong country. Or certainly some people must have been born in the wrong country if there is one true religion, so how do you know you're not one of those people?

And you know you were born in the right country because?

I don't know...that's why it's called a faith.

Science isn't a belief system it's methodology. Philosophy presents a different ways of thinking about life you can apply if you choose and religion gives you a list of things you have to believe and do. You can live happily enough with a list of anything you have to believe or do. Some people may enjoy being told what to believe and do but it would then seem more like a hobby rather than something that is true or relevant to life.

Living happily seems quite relevant to life to me.

So if we both witnessed the Christ rise from his tomb 2000 years ago it wouldn't be a supernatural event because we would both be sharing the same experience?

Yes, that would be supernatural, but you've changed the scenario from everyone to the two of us.

If the supernatural exists and if it does anything then will be potentially scientifically obtainable evidence for it. These will be things we can observe, detect and measure like anything else.

Key words bolded. Phenomena that are observable like any other are considered natural, even if not yet explained.

It would still be supernatural in that it would originate beyond the natural world but detectable within the natural world because it operates within it. So we can have rock solid evidence for the supernatural if it exists and that's what we need.

And how do you detect that it originates outside the natural world?

[Zone]

I don't know...that's why it's called a faith.

So you have faith that you were born in the right country? What do you base that faith upon?

Living happily seems quite relevant to life to me.

Why would you need supernatural beings you can't prove one way or the other for that? What about all the things and the people you know do exist for certain right here and now?

Yes, that would be supernatural, but you've changed the scenario from everyone to the two of us.

Why did things like that only happen thousands of years ago and not in our current media age where everyone could potentially see it happen? You could have had Christ resurrection or Moses parting of the Red Sea uploaded on Youtube if it ever happened today. But it seems to me like God holds off the miracles once a civilization enters a certain phase of development when they would be detectable and open to scrutiny. The ones he does apparently still do are all ones we can't study or prove or can be faked or just a coincidence. Back in the day there was so much more going on. Another possible explanation is that the world was much the same as it is now but people were able to get away with more in terms of the tales they could tell. You just have to look at a modern religion like Mormonism to see the limitations of what could be done in a scientific age.

Key words bolded. Phenomena that are observable like any other are considered natural, even if not yet explained.

Why couldn't everything that exists just be a part of everything that naturally exists and always existed? What explanatory power does adding anything outside and beyond the natural world have? It's like if say ghosts were to exist perhaps there could be a natural explanation for them that science could study and we could understand what they are and how they're formed. This way you leave everything potentially open rather than saying "We can't know about this because it's magic".

And how do you detect that it originates outside the natural world?

You can't but that's the point, this could be entirely natural even the stuff that would seem supernatural to us because we wouldn't know how it works. But if all the supernatural claims made by religion were true then modern science would be all over it and we would all be certain of the reality of these claims.

[John V]

Why would you need supernatural beings you can't prove one way or the other for that?

Why? I suppose it's either because we were designed such by supernatural beings, or evolved that way.

What about all the things and the people you know do exist for certain right here and now?

Quite a few of those make me happy.

Why did things like that only happen thousands of years ago and not in our current media age where everyone could potentially see it happen? You could have had Christ resurrection or Moses parting of the Red Sea uploaded on Youtube if it ever happened today. But it seems to me like God holds off the miracles once a civilization enters a certain phase of development when they would be detectable and open to scrutiny.

It seems to me that god holds off on miracles in general. Read the Bible. There aren't as many miracles as you think, most of them center around Moses and Jesus as you note, and centuries go by without any.

Why couldn't everything that exists just be a part of everything that naturally exists and always existed?

Because it doesn't look like everything always existed.

What explanatory power does adding anything outside and beyond the natural world have?

Quite a bit to a lot of people.

It's like if say ghosts were to exist perhaps there could be a natural explanation for them that science could study and we could understand what they are and how they're formed.

Personally I don't see a real distinction between supernatural and natural. I suppose that Jesus could explain the mechanics of turning water into wine, for example.

This way you leave everything potentially open rather than saying "We can't know about this because it's magic".

Er, you say that. Believers think we can know about it because it's been revealed by another intelligent entity.

You can't but that's the point, this could be entirely natural even the stuff that would seem supernatural to us because we wouldn't know how it works.

So it would not be seen as miraculous, and there's no reason for god to do such things.

But if all the supernatural claims made by religion were true then modern science would be all over it and we would all be certain of the reality of these claims.

Again, they wouldn't be considered supernatural.

[Zone]

Why? I suppose it's either because we were designed such by supernatural beings, or evolved that way.

You can't decide for yourself why you think supernatural beings and powers are important? They are very exciting sure but the Greek gods of Olympus were exciting as well but apparently they never existed and the religion based around them was purely man made and from the imagination. They could all be like this.

Quite a few of those make me happy.

But all this has to be supplemented with a supernatural powers? The world isn't wondrous enough you? Is a garden without fairies at the bottom it less beautiful?

It seems to me that god holds off on miracles in general. Read the Bible. There aren't as many miracles as you think, most of them center around Moses and Jesus as you note, and centuries go by without any.

Joshua made the sun stand still, there's a talking donkey in there, there are visitations of various angels, the walls of Jericho, the earth opened and swallowed Korah, Samsons strength based on the length of his hair, Jonah living inside the belly of a whale/giant fish, hands being withered and then restored, natural elements controlled by prayer, people being consumed by holy fire, bears being summoned to kill people, there are raisings from the dead in there, people being miraculously healed of leprosy, Elishas bones restore the dead, people being cured of blindness, an entire army killed by an angel, time/the shadow of the sun is altered, the Ark of the Covenant and Gideons Magic fleece! Could these just be folktales as all cultures throughout the world have?

Because it doesn't look like everything always existed.

We don't necessarily observe the totality of all that exists. The totality of everything could as natural as we are.

Personally I don't see a real distinction between supernatural and natural. I suppose that Jesus could explain the mechanics of turning water into wine, for example.

If he were alive today he would certainly win James Randhi's one million dollars. Where have all the supernatural mother fuckers who used to be around thousands of years gone to? There are vastly many more people today than there ever was yet the supernatural power level factor has plummeted and tailed right off there ought to be more of them now than there were back then. No-one can demonstrate even a whiff of genuine supernatural ability. Jesus was even able to teach his disciples these powers so it could be done to some degree even if you weren't the Son of God. Certainly the OT prophets had significant powers as well. I'm not against the idea of the supernatural but I can't see the modern day evidence for it. If it was thousands of years ago they could easily have made it up and no-one would know, they made up Zeus and Thor they made up anything. Are we living an age where supernatural power is at weak ebb in it's cycle or something?

Er, you say that. Believers think we can know about it because it's been revealed by another intelligent entity.

It's been revealed by supernatural miracles that supposedly happened thousands of years ago but don't ever happen now that's the problem. And how do you know the Quran and the Book of Mormon weren't revealed by an intelligent entity? How do determine which one is what? There's a massive potential to believe in something that is a bit silly here.





This guy believes were being controlled by shape shifting reptilian interdimensional aliens who live on the moon. And why not? It's no worse than religion would claim just a little more fleshed out. Whether he genuinely believes it or he's just making money from it I don't know but this what we're going to be open here. Or take Rupert Sheldrake, he believes the Sun is a conscious being.





And it may as well be why not? We can throw everything of any sense out the window at this point.

So it would not be seen as miraculous, and there's no reason for god to do such things.

So instead of awesome displays of power we have to make do with William Lane Craig talking shite?

Again, they wouldn't be considered supernatural.

Then why should the ones in the Bible ago be considered supernatural if they happened? The difference is we would be certain if anything like that happened today but it doesn't happen. So it could be it didn't happen back then either that's a good logical deduction.

[FallentoReason]

It's unjustified faith if the thing you're putting faith in is unverifiable;

You're using "faith" here in the sense of trust, while I specifically used it in the sense of belief.

In the sense of belief, the thing believed is not verified. If it were, belief in it would no longer require faith. It may or may not be verifiable. However, note that, until verified, claiming that something is verifiable is also a belief on faith.

Meh, semantics... have it your way then: it's unjustified belief that you're applying to your god. What is it exactly that leads you to blindly believe this unverifiable being over any other unverifiable being, including unverifiable lawn-growing gnomes? If you don't have any method of reasonably excluding belief in lawn-growing gnomes, then for you to say your "faith/belief" is reasonable would be begging the question, as you are *somehow* believing one thing over another for *some* reason.

[Zone]

That's the problem while you can claim your religion is reasonable there are other completely different religions only some of which based around the concept of God that making the same claims and based on the same amount of evidence. There has to be a reason why one religion is more likely than another beyond reasons of your geographical location which you had no choice in. There are also claims being made by religion that go beyond and against what we currently actually understand of our universe, like say demons exist and can possess people or people can be healed by prayer/spirit energy. If these things are real they can now be fully demonstrated as a part of the natural world.

[John V]

You can't decide for yourself why you think supernatural beings and powers are important?

It would help if your questions were more specific.

But all this has to be supplemented with a supernatural powers? The world isn't wondrous enough you? Is a garden without fairies at the bottom it less beautiful?

Yes. Same for you. Consider scientific explorations of origins. Is the night sky not wondrous and beautiful enough for you? Do you need an estimate of how old it is? Considering the ubiquity of origins explanations in human cultures, that seems to be a need hard-wired into us.

Joshua made the sun stand still, there's a talking donkey in there, there are visitations of various angels, the walls of Jericho, the earth opened and swallowed Korah, Samsons strength based on the length of his hair, Jonah living inside the belly of a whale/giant fish, hands being withered and then restored, natural elements controlled by prayer, people being consumed by holy fire, bears being summoned to kill people, there are raisings from the dead in there, people being miraculously healed of leprosy, Elishas bones restore the dead, people being cured of blindness, an entire army killed by an angel, time/the shadow of the sun is altered, the Ark of the Covenant and Gideons Magic fleece!

As I said, over the course of 4,000 years, there aren’t many miracles, and centuries go by without any.

Could these just be folktales as all cultures throughout the world have?

Sure.

We don't necessarily observe the totality of all that exists. The totality of everything could as natural as we are.

Could be. When you speculate outside that which we can observe, are you not invoking the supernatural yourself?

If he were alive today he would certainly win James Randhi's one million dollars. Where have all the supernatural mother fuckers who used to be around thousands of years gone to?

As noted, and as you demonstrated, miracles are few and far between in the Bible.

Heck, consider any biography or history. It seems like there’s always something fascinating going on – but that’s because it’s the fascinating things that are recorded.

It's been revealed by supernatural miracles that supposedly happened thousands of years ago but don't ever happen now that's the problem.

As noted, it’s to be expected. There’s nothing special about this generation. If we should be shown miracles, then all generations in all places should be shown them. But, if they’re occurring regularly, they won’t be taken as miraculous anymore.

And how do you know the Quran and the Book of Mormon weren't revealed by an intelligent entity? How do determine which one is what? There's a massive potential to believe in something that is a bit silly here.

Regarding the Koran, Muhammed didn’t show miraculous signs to back up his claims. Regarding both of them, if they claim an earlier revelation as a foundation, they need to maintain reasonable consistency with those revelations, and they don’t.

This guy believes were being controlled by shape shifting reptilian interdimensional aliens who live on the moon. And why not? It's no worse than religion would claim just a little more fleshed out. Whether he genuinely believes it or he's just making money from it I don't know but this what we're going to be open here.

See, you note an important consideration yourself – motivation. Muhammed and Joseph Smith seemed to gain much more personally from their ministries than Jesus or Paul.

So instead of awesome displays of power we have to make do with William Lane Craig talking shite?

God made awesome displays of power. You can believe them or not. As already explained, if he made them all the time, they would be considered natural.

Then why should the ones in the Bible ago be considered supernatural if they happened? The difference is we would be certain if anything like that happened today but it doesn't happen. So it could be it didn't happen back then either that's a good logical deduction.

If it happened today, that would do nothing for the people in the centuries between, or the centuries following. So, to be fair these things would need to be done all the time, and they would be considered natural.

[Zone]

Yes. Same for you. Consider scientific explorations of origins. Is the night sky not wondrous and beautiful enough for you? Do you need an estimate of how old it is? Considering the ubiquity of origins explanations in human cultures, that seems to be a need hard-wired into us.

The natural universe science has revealed is more wonderful than the supernatural things revealed in scripture. It reminds of the video game Ascension of the Metatron when one of the fallen angels says to Enoch the main character "Do you not see? Do you not understand? This Tower we have built is better than the world God made!". The reality of the universe is too small to be confined within human concepts, traditions or magical explanations it goes beyond all that. The authors of the Bible had some great imagination but that is all it ever was, like the Book of Mormon, like the Quran, the Vedas and everything else. These are works of fiction. What we now have and what is beginning to emerge is a work of reality which is beyond anything we ever imagined. Whether there is anything like a God or some kind afterlife it's not for us to say we can focus on the world as it is and the issues that really matter instead, and on finding out more about the nature of reality the hard way.

As I said, over the course of 4,000 years, there aren’t many miracles, and centuries go by without any.

There are no miracles and if they were any we could explain what they are and they would become a part of the known natural world. This is the way for everything we don't need be shackled to ancient myth and folktales about all powerful beings and demons. I'm not saying nothing like that can possibly exist anywhere it just won't be in the Bible.

Sure.

That's all it is then, keep it simple. There's a real danger of believing in things that aren't true otherwise.

Could be. When you speculate outside that which we can observe, are you not invoking the supernatural yourself?

The supernatural is like saying "magic did it" it's being content with a non-explanation. We want the real thing and it's within our reach now, but it will be very hard work and many many take many thousands of years. We have only just got started here we're not living in the end times these are the beginning times, religion is part of our infancy and our growing up as a species. I suppose it can still be part of human culture though but that's all it ever was to begin with.

Heck, consider any biography or history. It seems like there’s always something fascinating going on – but that’s because it’s the fascinating things that are recorded.

From our real working knowledge of the way the world operates "miracles" do not happen and if they did they could just be a part of the natural world we would be able to explain. They are stories of Roman Emperors curing the blind with their own spit but we don't believe those stories because we know the world doesn't work like that.

As noted, it’s to be expected. There’s nothing special about this generation. If we should be shown miracles, then all generations in all places should be shown them. But, if they’re occurring regularly, they won’t be taken as miraculous anymore.

They would be seen as just the way the world works but thousands of years ago people just believed that the world worked that way because they knew no better. Jesus's miracles wouldn't have been seen as such a big deal because the supernatural world and supernatural powers and beings were all around them and they believed they saw and experienced them everyday. We don't live in their world.

Regarding the Koran, Muhammed didn’t show miraculous signs to back up his claims. Regarding both of them, if they claim an earlier revelation as a foundation, they need to maintain reasonable consistency with those revelations, and they don’t.

Mohammed flew to heaven on a winged horse, you can't argue with that if you believe in supernatural miracles. But no you can argue with it, it was all made up. One rule for one one rule for all.

See, you note an important consideration yourself – motivation. Muhammed and Joseph Smith seemed to gain much more personally from their ministries than Jesus or Paul.

Jesus could have been a failed apocalyptic prophet and a local legend grew up around him after his death. People may well have had experience of Jesus after his death but people had experience of Elvis after his death as well. It doesn't mean Elvis had returned from the dead it just means people thought they saw him. You can see how easy it would be for something like that to get started and to circulate. So certainly it would be a different foundation to Islam and Mormonism.

God made awesome displays of power. You can believe them or not. As already explained, if he made them all the time, they would be considered natural.

People back in the day DID consider them to be natural because it was the way the world worked. The sun and the moon the stars, all the process of life and birth and disease and death were all governed by supernatural power of some kind. The Jews had one supernatural power for everything and the Pagans had various different gods. There doesn't have to be any supernatural powers at all it can be just one great natural order that always existed in some form, perhaps it runs itself on a natural cycle or rhythm with periods of expansion and contraction.

If it happened today, that would do nothing for the people in the centuries between, or the centuries following. So, to be fair these things would need to be done all the time, and they would be considered natural.

Back in the day people believed they did happen all the time because they had no other explanation for anything that happened in their world. Though there were some advocates of a purely natural order around in ancient times such as Aristotle who rejected all supernatural claims.

[John V]

Mohammed flew to heaven on a winged horse, you can't argue with that if you believe in supernatural miracles. But no you can argue with it, it was all made up. One rule for one one rule for all.

Jesus could have been a failed apocalyptic prophet and a local legend grew up around him after his death.

Here you bring up another way to compare religions. The miraculous events associated with Mohammed were not in the Koran. They were introduced in later writings. Miracles are associated with Jesus from the start. Many speculate that the NT originated in a non-miraculous sayings document, but since no such document has been found, Christianity has this point over Islam.

There doesn't have to be any supernatural powers at all it can be just one great natural order that always existed in some form, perhaps it runs itself on a natural cycle or rhythm with periods of expansion and contraction.

This brings us back to my earlier point that things haven’t always been as they are. You’re correct that a cyclical universe is necessary from a materialist point of view. The first model didn’t work – the rate of expansion of the universe was found to be inconsistent with the model. Other models are now being worked on.

[downbeatplumb]

Prove that ANY lifeform on this wonderful planet has eternal life.

This Jellyfish does.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Turritopsis_nutricula

Turritopsis nutricula, the immortal jellyfish, is a hydrozoan whose medusa, or jellyfish, form can revert to the polyp stage after becoming sexually mature. It is the only known case of an animal capable of reverting completely to a sexually immature, colonial stage after having reached sexual maturity as a solitary stage.[2][3] It does this through the cell development process of transdifferentiation.
Cell transdifferentiation is when the jellyfish "alters the differentiated state of the cell and transforms it into a new cell". In this process the medusa of the immortal jellyfish is transformed into the polyps of a new polyp colony. First, the umbrella reverts itself and then the tentacles and mesoglea get resorbed. The reverted medusa then attaches itself to the substrate by the end that had been at the opposite end of the umbrella and starts giving rise to new polyps to form the new colony.
Theoretically, this process can go on indefinitely, effectively rendering the jellyfish biologically immortal