A small thanks to the resident Theists..

[Esquilax]

Edit - thanks for that link, I'll have to save that one for when anyone wants to try to argue that religion does no harm.

Ah, but you see, no true christian would do anything harmful!

Gotta hand it to the guys, they might not have a shred of intellectual honesty anywhere else, but they sure know how to cover their asses in ways they're totally satisfied with believing.

[Godscreated]

"...we need to live in relation to god."

Okay, I reject that idea as do many other people. I don't think it's easier to live life with a deity involved. Rather, I believe it to be dishonest and an easy cop out when the shit hits the fan.

I really don't agree with your last statement either. Ever read about faith healing? I suppose you have an explanation for that.

I did not say anything about faith healing, do I believe it happens, yes, sometimes. Do I believe that people should ever reject physicians, never.

GC

[Whateverist]

You're an idiot then. (my justifiable belief).
Everything after "No" is fluff...

Gee! I didn't realize your mother was off limits.

Then again being called an idiot by card carrying true believer is almost a bragging point. So thanks.

[Godscreated]

---

God wants use to rely on Him for our answers, being omniscient He can guide us to truth in His word. There's nothing wrong with His word, it's humans that make the controversies, people have a desire to be better or know more than others (self righteous). Instead of listening to God's revelation of His word, they want to have their own revelation for their own idea, whether it be to tear down God's word or to look like they know more than others. The Bible is far more than instruction book, it is a guide through life with revelation coming through His word to use as we need it, either for one's own life or to help teach others. The deeper understanding of God's word is for Christians to learn more about God as the relationship deepens.

GC

---

GC,

This is not meant to be mocking. What I am going to attempt to do is to show you why your logic flies in the face of everything (this) atheist is about:

I understand and welcome an honest debate.

"God wants use to rely on Him for our answers, being omniscient He can guide us to truth in His word. There's nothing wrong with His word, it's humans that make the controversies, people have a desire to be better or know more than others (self righteous)."

This is the sort of education that we currently use all the way up to the end of Junior school. The teacher tells us and we learn it.

I did not mean that God dictates to us and we live as robots, life's far to complicated. Sunday school would be more of an appropriate comparison.

As education progresses, however, there is more and more encouragement, and need, to find the answers on our own. The lessons at this stage of our education are the fundamental basis of the development of everything about us. Teaching kids to think for themselves, and research for themselves is absolutely critical.

This is the way the teaching in most (I want say all) churches goes. As the children age the teaching turns more to how to apply God given knowledge in many different ways and this applies all through adulthood, remember this is life we are speaking of, no science, history, math and ect. When things do not work out for someone in the church, that person should seek help from God and ask for advise from the church, just as a student might do with a teacher and the material being studied.

It is the desire to be better, or to know more (not really than others - that 's a projection) that drives us forward. There is nothing self-righteous about it. Its just part of an innate desire to understand, explore and then possibly utilize.

I agree with what you say and I should have made my statement clearer. All Christians should desire to learn as much as possible about God and His desires for us and apply what we learn to our lives and for the service to others. What I meant by the self righteous was this type of person flaunts what they have learned or believe they have learned, using it to try and control others. For the ones I said used scripture to tear it down, like Ehrman, pride themselves on their ideas of what scriptures say.

"...they want to have their own revelation for their own idea, whether it be to tear down God's word or to look like they know more than others."

Well...they want to understand (its part of the human condition). If that understanding conflicts with God's word then it conflicts. Its then the individual's choice what to do at that point. In many cases - an atheist is born, in some another religion is chosen or sought and in some, I guess, they change their ideas to fit God's.

Here I disagree, they want to fit God's word into there chosen life style or to control the way others believe. This type of person is not interested in God's truth, why, because it doesn't fit their desires.
For God's word to be effective in one's life it can not be conflicting with a person's thoughts. The truth of God's word must be applied to one's life to bring one into a greater understanding of God, so one can grow in a relationship with Him. I do not believe atheist are born, IMO they are made by circumstances in their lives.

For reasons I do not know I have a drive to understand things. I spend a huge proportion of my free-time on the net. That divides up between reading the news (particularly anything on the latest scientific advances), watching Youtube videos that explain and review items ranging from the latest mobile phones to the latest theories in physics to new dinosaur discoveries to .... well anything that catches my eye, and then recently on here where I like to discuss and share ideas.

In this we might be called brothers, I'm the same way. I just bought a bicycle, but before I did I did research on bikes to find what would work best for my needs. Once I decided which bike I study the bike and all it's parts so I would be familiar with it before it came into the shop. When it came to the shop I paid extra to be able to help build the bike so I could further understand this thing I purchased. I do this in my woodworking and most things I am interested in, learning is a delight in my life.

" The Bible is far more than an instruction book, it is a guide through life with revelation coming through His word to use as we need it, either for one's own life or to help teach others. '

The most interesting part of that sentence is "as we need it."

For some, possibly many, it appears we don't.

Again I disagree, being that I have experienced what God can do in a person's life I just can not imagine how one could not benefit from the whole of God's word. I'm not trying to tell you how to live your life, it's that I know first hand how God can change and shape a life into something so much more than it was before. It's like tasting a new food for the first time and finding out it's as good as everyone said it was and one would never know if they rejected it without tasting. I also know that there will be those who find it distasteful, but could that be a mental picture that was drawn before the tasting, could it be a self imposed idea?

GC

[catfish]

I feel...happy. Thank you for at least SOMETHING, catfish.

What are you talking about? That "something" is the same thing you got here:
http://atheistforums.org/thread-20756-po...#pid504249
and here:
http://atheistforums.org/thread-20756-po...#pid504261
and here:
http://atheistforums.org/thread-20756-po...#pid504255

and they're all just more elaborate versions of here:
http://atheistforums.org/thread-20756-po...#pid504230

I'm not certain if the Bible itself claims to be unerring as a whole, but I feel that you would agree with me that many Christians do make the claim that their Holy Book is unerring.

Why do you need to know my views? Are you prejudiced against Christians like missluckie is?

I have a hunch that they do this based on the idea that something inspired by a perfect being cannot be wrong. Where do you stand on this?

Again with questions regarding my personal views, this time regarding people. What relevance do my views of what people believe about things written over 1900 years ago have to do with what is actually written there? I care not why you would commit a logical fallacy or factual error, I only care (and will point out) that your committed one.

(I have a hunch you believe that only because someone told you it. )

(And we can let missluckie find some biblical evidence for the claim that it says it's unerring, but I doubt after all that's transpired in this thread that she'll want to address your concern.)

Oh, do you mean that it would be too embarassing for her? I can understand that sentiment. She created a thread dangerously close to a bannable offence. She strawmanned a Chritian's viewpoint and said that such viewpoint was akin to being mentally ill. Then she admitted to finding them justified in following a fucked-up viewpoint based on a book like she was espousing (but not justified in believing in God) which I think makes her just as "mentally ill" as those she wishes to ridicule. She strawmanned my position by accusing me of saying she was going to hell when she knew months ago that I don't believe in hell. She also strawmanned my positition by focusing on aeonian (incorrectly I might add). You did basically the same thing so I am quite surprised you still responded and admitted that you are uncertain concerning that which I challenged.
Since you're a good sport and your fluffy pillows, er... I mean iron knuckles tickled, I figure I'll give you something:
I'm a Christian and proud of it. I also believe in a God who exists beyond this universe.

---

Like I've said before, bare assertions abound 'round these here parts...

As do asswipes who aren't worth the breath. You are aware that just cuz you claim victory doesn't mean you won right? Yeah. If that's how you judge your success (by wasting peoples' time and effort then pissing them off to the point they won't reply to you), then whooo-boy I bet you're conceited as fuck. It's dishonest, really.

Shoo fly

Sigh... I can't claim victory unless you admit your error, otherwise it's just unfinished business until you make the same error and I ask for evidence again.
If you think verifying your claims is waste of time then I can understand how we came into this little "discussion" that has your panties in such a bunch. Do you form your own opinions or do you rent them from evilbible?
What's dishonest is making stuff up and claiming it's true.

[max-greece]

---

---

GC,

This is not meant to be mocking. What I am going to attempt to do is to show you why your logic flies in the face of everything (this) atheist is about:

I understand and welcome an honest debate.

"God wants use to rely on Him for our answers, being omniscient He can guide us to truth in His word. There's nothing wrong with His word, it's humans that make the controversies, people have a desire to be better or know more than others (self righteous)."

This is the sort of education that we currently use all the way up to the end of Junior school. The teacher tells us and we learn it.

I did not mean that God dictates to us and we live as robots, life's far to complicated. Sunday school would be more of an appropriate comparison.

As education progresses, however, there is more and more encouragement, and need, to find the answers on our own. The lessons at this stage of our education are the fundamental basis of the development of everything about us. Teaching kids to think for themselves, and research for themselves is absolutely critical.

This is the way the teaching in most (I want say all) churches goes. As the children age the teaching turns more to how to apply God given knowledge in many different ways and this applies all through adulthood, remember this is life we are speaking of, no science, history, math and ect. When things do not work out for someone in the church, that person should seek help from God and ask for advise from the church, just as a student might do with a teacher and the material being studied.

It is the desire to be better, or to know more (not really than others - that 's a projection) that drives us forward. There is nothing self-righteous about it. Its just part of an innate desire to understand, explore and then possibly utilize.

I agree with what you say and I should have made my statement clearer. All Christians should desire to learn as much as possible about God and His desires for us and apply what we learn to our lives and for the service to others. What I meant by the self righteous was this type of person flaunts what they have learned or believe they have learned, using it to try and control others. For the ones I said used scripture to tear it down, like Ehrman, pride themselves on their ideas of what scriptures say.

"...they want to have their own revelation for their own idea, whether it be to tear down God's word or to look like they know more than others."

Well...they want to understand (its part of the human condition). If that understanding conflicts with God's word then it conflicts. Its then the individual's choice what to do at that point. In many cases - an atheist is born, in some another religion is chosen or sought and in some, I guess, they change their ideas to fit God's.

Here I disagree, they want to fit God's word into there chosen life style or to control the way others believe. This type of person is not interested in God's truth, why, because it doesn't fit their desires.
For God's word to be effective in one's life it can not be conflicting with a person's thoughts. The truth of God's word must be applied to one's life to bring one into a greater understanding of God, so one can grow in a relationship with Him. I do not believe atheist are born, IMO they are made by circumstances in their lives.

For reasons I do not know I have a drive to understand things. I spend a huge proportion of my free-time on the net. That divides up between reading the news (particularly anything on the latest scientific advances), watching Youtube videos that explain and review items ranging from the latest mobile phones to the latest theories in physics to new dinosaur discoveries to .... well anything that catches my eye, and then recently on here where I like to discuss and share ideas.

In this we might be called brothers, I'm the same way. I just bought a bicycle, but before I did I did research on bikes to find what would work best for my needs. Once I decided which bike I study the bike and all it's parts so I would be familiar with it before it came into the shop. When it came to the shop I paid extra to be able to help build the bike so I could further understand this thing I purchased. I do this in my woodworking and most things I am interested in, learning is a delight in my life.

" The Bible is far more than an instruction book, it is a guide through life with revelation coming through His word to use as we need it, either for one's own life or to help teach others. '

The most interesting part of that sentence is "as we need it."

For some, possibly many, it appears we don't.

Again I disagree, being that I have experienced what God can do in a person's life I just can not imagine how one could not benefit from the whole of God's word. I'm not trying to tell you how to live your life, it's that I know first hand how God can change and shape a life into something so much more than it was before. It's like tasting a new food for the first time and finding out it's as good as everyone said it was and one would never know if they rejected it without tasting. I also know that there will be those who find it distasteful, but could that be a mental picture that was drawn before the tasting, could it be a self imposed idea?

GC

GC,

I really wanted to reply to this properly but life it rather getting in the way.

Suffice to say:

Does the level of commonality between us strike you at all?

We obviously come from very different backgrounds and have apparently contradictory opinions on many things and yet, and yet, look how often we might agree on things. Says something - just not entirely sure what.

Suppose we equate some things together (at a high level). Suppose, for example, we make God (you) and conscience (me) synonymous as our guide to life.

Suppose, further, we take what Jesus said is the most important commandment with the second, the golden rule being applied.

For me the loving my neighbour as myself comes first with my conscience being my guide.

There is similarity there. Outwardly, at least, you and I might be quite difficult to distinguish on the basis of our actions.

This implies to me something along the lines of "there is more than one way to skin a cat."

In other words - the routes chosen may be different but the destination (lets call that a good life - if we can without wincing) is the same.

To me that means that God/conscience is an essential part. Which of the 2 is not really important (indeed which God is not really important - there were people as "good" as you and I worshipping Zeus).

Food for thought?

[Chas]

He can't take responsibility for his actions. It's always our fault. We MUST be ganging up on him if we are all saying the same things to him. We're all part of a gang created solely to put GC in his place. It's a fucking conspiracy, man.

Oh, fuck, you let the secret out. Now we have to shun you or disfellowship you, or something.

[Ryantology]

It's like tasting a new food for the first time and finding out it's as good as everyone said it was and one would never know if they rejected it without tasting. I also know that there will be those who find it distasteful, but could that be a mental picture that was drawn before the tasting, could it be a self imposed idea?

You have no idea how easy it is to picture you at a table, sawing at an empty plate with a knife, bringing an empty fork to your mouth and putting nothing in it, then making obnoxious sounds of chewing and swallowing, followed by a loud proclamation of how tasty the food is. It's so you.

[Angrboda]

Oh God, please, just make them shut up.

[Bad Writer]

Oh God, please, just make them shut up.

There is definitely something disturbing about it, but I'm wondering where it will ultimately lead.