Reasons for God

[ecolox]

You simply don't understand. This isn't intended to be a proof of God's existence. This merely shows that faith in God is consoling, and that such consolation is enabling to people who desire to give more of themselves here on earth.

Well then that means nothing because you can get your consolation from many things, not just God. And some would think that a delusional belief that consoles you may not always be the best thing.

Sure. You can be consoled by alcohol and drugs, friends and family, or success and good fortune.
Re: "...some would think..." - I wouldn't think that, God is always reliable. The faithful doesn't need substances and can be consoled in times of failure. Even friends and family can't fill every void - as people often have their own interests or agendas to look after and may not understand everything that is needed. God never fails when sought after with genuine faith.

And of course, this also makes out that you are perhaps more insecure than those who disbelieve in God and don't need such consoling.

You must be stronger than a human. I like all humans am insecure.
I have known atheists who didn't need consolation from God. They often solicited moral support (handicapped), turned to substances (handicapped), or didn't and were morally handicapped. They often succeeded more than others in being polite, but not in being good in any real way. They certainly didn't defend the poor in spirit.

And, as for myself 1. I see no reason to believe God actually exists

The mystery of the universe, our ignorance, disallows us from concluding, through bare logic, that God is the only possible answer behind it all. You should merely consider God possible, if you're only logical.

2. You've actually admitted that you haven't given me any, you are just arguing from the "consolation" of the matter (consolation to you anyway!).

I haven't because I can't. Now I'm just explaining how reasonable God is in light of how consoling faith is in the pursuit of good.

3. I am perfectly secure as I am (well, more or less ) and I don't need such consolation

You must not risk very much then. You live in a safe house. This is indicative of the selfishness you are limited to...

4. I actually care about the truth, and, if anything does console me more than anything else, to be honest, for me personally: It's the truth that does that. I hate denying reality.

I hate to deny reality as well. If you're honest about reality then you are faced with an immense mystery, and this in and of itself isn't consoling in the least. Mystery and uncertainty are hardly consoling. For sure, the few truths you are aware of are meaningless when set beside the ultimate truth (mystery) of the universe.
I believe that this reality is indicative, though not conclusive, of God. I do make a leap of faith due to my pursuit of and reverence to what is good.

---

A fine-tuned universe + a God requires more explanation than just a fine-tuned universe.

God just complicates the problem even further.

Of course these are absurd statements. You don't have a clue what explanation a fine-tuned universe requires, so you cannot claim that God complicates the explanation. It may well be that God is the simplest viable explanation of this universe and our existence that very much hangs in the balance.

Adding god into the equation just raises more questions and complicates things further.

Thanks Ace for rehashing what EvF just said and making the same mistakes. Shoot for originality next time.

[Ace Otana]

Ok, how?

Simple, being socially minded. I generally do care about others well being. As much as you can in fact. Tell me, why do I need some imaginary friend in order to do good if I can already do good without such a thing?

Can you give examples of this good that we cannot do? I can do good on the same level as you can. Prove me wrong.

Sustained, secret good, such that you are not rewarded. This isn't a competition, by the way...though I'm sure you'd put on a great show in order to "win" against me.

I was not asking for a competition. I simply asked what is it you think I cannot do. The above you mentioned is something I can and have already done. I do things for others despite there being no reward for me. I've done things that I will not gain from but others gain from it. So you are dead wrong there. I can do all the good in the world just as you can. It's just I don't need a religion or some god thing to give me a reason to do it.

Thanks Ace for rehashing what EvF just said and making the same mistakes.

If you think I'm wrong then answer the blood questions that I put as an example! Don't just say I'm wrong and dance around my points, answer them or say nothing.

[solarwave]

I don't believe in it because I know it's only a theory atm, and doesn't have evidence as far as I know? It's possible, but I dunno...

And you're wrong about the fine-tuning argument. A fine-tuned universe + a God requires more explanation than just a fine-tuned universe. Imagine how fucking fine-tuned God would have to be to either be there from the beginning or "outside time itself", or have "created himself", and do all that fine-tuning, without any explanation for himself whatsoever?

God just complicates the problem even further.

EvF

Spot on EvF!
Jolly good show.

The "fine tuning" shit doesn't point to a creator(god like thing). Adding god into the equation just raises more questions and complicates things further. Like how fine tuned would god have to be in order to create such a fine tuned universe? Also why would god create it? What does he gain out of creating something if he is perfect in every way? What is the purpose of god's existence if he cannot be anything more than what he is? What evidence is there to say that a god exists? See how adding god into it just raises more questions?
The universe is big, dangerous, not made for us and is filled with ungathered knowledge. Adding an unprovable supernatural, flying, invisible all knowing all perfect being will ONLY raise more questions and will not help in anyway when it comes to gaining knowledge.

I don't think you can compare the fine-tuning arguement to God since they are totally different things. God is a simple idea. To make this universe all He needs is omnipotence, omniscience, goodness, timelessness, to be immaterial. All of these are simple idea since they are all the extremes of what they are, they dont need a certain range to be in unlike the laws of physics. God ether has a complete lack of something or as much of it as possible. I also consider God as the foundation of reality which pretty much brings those extra qualities with it. So you can simply say God is the personal foundation of reality. That is a very simple idea.

to continue later ...

[Minimalist]

You don't have a clue what explanation a fine-tuned universe requires

"Fine-tuned?" Look at the moon and note the impact craters. For that matter Earth has had its share of impacts as has Mars. We have video of Jupiter getting blasted. Your definition of "fine-tuning" leaves a lot to be desired. And as we know almost nothing about the rest of the "universe" your assertion that it is "fine-tuned" is about as absurd as your notion of some 'god' who did the "fine-tuning."

[Edwardo Piet]

Sure. You can be consoled by alcohol and drugs, friends and family, or success and good fortune.

Or any other crackpot religion besides your own. Or pseudo science , etc.

[...] The faithful doesn't need substances and can be consoled in times of failure.

It's still got fuck-all to do with the reality of the matter. And delusion can be dangerous. Especially when believers don't realize that their belief is just consoling because they believe it is. Because what evidence is there that their belief is actually true?

And where's your evidence? You can't give any. You argue form consolation and then act as if you're right about his existence too without any actual evidence.

Even friends and family can't fill every void - as people often have their own interests or agendas to look after and may not understand everything that is needed.

Friends and family actually exist. I'd rather devote myself to my friends and family than to God, because at least my friends and family actually exist. And if God does exist, does he actually need any time spent on him?! Isn't he perfect how he is? Why the fuck bother putting any time into God when he's so perfect and I could be spending time with my family and friends? And...which god?

What evidence is there actually for this God of yours?

God never fails when sought after with genuine faith.

Evidence that statement or stop barely asserting it.

Cos I can just respond with "The Flying Spaghetti Monster never fails when sought after with genuine faith."

You must be stronger than a human.

No, because I'm human.

I like all humans am insecure.

I'm not talking about being 100% superhumanly secure. I'm talking about the fact that you believe you need God for consolation when I don't, could show you as being more insecure than me for instance. I don't need that shit.

I have known atheists who didn't need consolation from God.

Of course you have. All of them basically. If they needed consolation like yourself, they'd might be insecure enough to believe in God like yourself - and even if their not: What evidence is there of any god for them to need consolation from?

They often solicited moral support (handicapped), turned to substances (handicapped), or didn't and were morally handicapped. They often succeeded more than others in being polite, but not in being good in any real way.

And what's "real way" to you?

They certainly didn't defend the poor in spirit.

Then either you are deluded or by chance you've ran into some rather bad atheists.

Atheists are just people who don't believe in God. Religion can motivate you to do immoral things, or to do moral things for non-moral reasons. Either way it's not exactly morally enlightening. Religion either causes more immorality or it causes phony morality, it seems to me.

Name one moral act that a religious person can do that an atheist can't. Then think of things such as 911 that are a result of religion.

The mystery of the universe, our ignorance, disallows us from concluding, through bare logic, that God is the only possible answer behind it all.

Evidence that. You are merely asserting that. How the fuck does logic point to God? Sorry, but it seems to me that you argue from nothing more than personal incredulity and consolation.

You should merely consider God possible, if you're only logical.

Prove that.

I haven't because I can't. Now I'm just explaining how reasonable God is in light of how consoling faith is in the pursuit of good.

Whether it consoles you or not, "he" can't be reasonable if he doesn't exist. For if he doesn't exist there is no "he".

You must not risk very much then. You live in a safe house. This is indicative of the selfishness you are limited to...

What a pathetic conclusion you have made. How safe is safe? And how the fuck does that indicate selfishness?

I hate to deny reality as well.

Then why does the consolation point matter to you so much? If God doesn't exist then to believe in him because he's consoling ... is to deny reality.

If you're honest about reality then you are faced with an immense mystery, and this in and of itself isn't consoling in the least.

Maybe not to you. I am interested in reality and mystery. I certainly don't fear mystery. I revel in it.

Mystery and uncertainty are hardly consoling.

They are to me.

For sure, the few truths you are aware of are meaningless when set beside the ultimate truth (mystery) of the universe.

I am fascinated in the mystery of the universe. And I don't try to pathetically, superficially, gratuitously explain them away with "God".

I believe that this reality is indicative, though not conclusive, of God.

How is he? You can believe that if you want but I have no fucking idea what the hell you are talking about.

I do make a leap of faith due to my pursuit of and reverence to what is good.

I don't need to believe in God to be good. I am good.

Of course these are absurd statements.

To you maybe.

You don't have a clue what explanation a fine-tuned universe requires, so you cannot claim that God complicates the explanation.

Well you have yet to prove God. So the complexity of the universe + the complexity of God is more complex than just the complexity of the universe. Adding God into the equation makes it more complex unless you can actually explain how it doesn't. The burden of proof is on you. That is extremely obvious.

Before we have evidence of either God or how the universe is so complex. Then the problem of God's existnece + the universe is more of a problem than just the universe. Because until you evidence God, it's infinitely more rational to cut out the middle man. Because it's extremely fucking irrational special pleading to just take God on faith but not apply to same logic to other things, even when the same logic should apply.

It may well be that God is the simplest viable explanation of this universe and our existence that very much hangs in the balance.

It may be. But what fucking reason have you got to believe that? And what reason have you got to believe there's one in the first place? That's just wishful thinking on your part. Extremely irrational.

Thanks Ace for rehashing what EvF just said and making the same mistakes. Shoot for originality next time.

Ummm...maybe you need stuff repeating to you? If you can't get the basic arguments then it's hard to dive deeper sometimes!

@ Solarwave: However ultimately simple God is, him + the universe is more complex than just the universe. You still need to evidence him.

EvF

[solarwave]

Minimalist: Do you know just how fine-tuned the laws of physics have to be to allow life in the universe? All you have to do is look at the range from the strength of gravity to the strong nuclear force and see that there is a wide range of values forces could have had, but they just happen to be just right for life.

[Edwardo Piet]

Your special pleading astounds me. How fine-tuned would God have to be to create such fine-tuned phyiscal constants? Does he not require explanation and yet they do?! Why the special pleading?!

So what if the laws are fine-tuned, how interesting that may be from a scientific sense - it does nothing for God. He just complicates things further. Adding an unexplained entity into the equation, in this case - a deity: Does not magically solve the problem. If the laws of physics requires an explanation, why doesn't God require one?

EvF

[Minimalist]

Minimalist: Do you know just how fine-tuned the laws of physics have to be to allow life in the universe? All you have to do is look at the range from the strength of gravity to the strong nuclear force and see that there is a wide range of values forces could have had, but they just happen to be just right for life.

Stop the bullshit, Solar. Here you sit on planet earth, and you look around and say "here's life - therefore GOD." If any of a billion variables had not worked out properly we would not be sitting here having this conversation.

That does not imply goddidit the way you seem to think. It implies "shit happens." In all the hundreds of billions of stars there are planets and the odds are that some of them, just like earth, have experienced an evolution of life. It is a question of probability. Of course, the 'happy zone' that you seem so proud of exists around every star but that only applies to life forms like us. We cannot even speculate on how life may have developed outside that zone.

You have an apparent need to feel "special," and your fairy tales fill that need Therefore, keep listening to con man preachers who tell you what you want to hear. You'll he happier that way.

[ecolox]

Sure. You can be consoled by alcohol and drugs, friends and family, or success and good fortune.

Or any other crackpot religion besides your own. Or pseudo science , etc.

Crackpot religions lead to failures, while correct religion does not, but to success.

[...] The faithful doesn't need substances and can be consoled in times of failure.

It's still got fuck-all to do with the reality of the matter. And delusion can be dangerous. Especially when believers don't realize that their belief is just consoling because they believe it is. Because what evidence is there that their belief is actually true?

You don't know what the reality is, no one does. This is where faith comes in. Faith can be beneficial, if properly placed, or it can be very dangerous. Remaining uncertain forces you into inaction, this is why I believe that everyone decides and lives according to some interpretation of what the reality "must be". EvF doesn't live in uncertainty and inaction. You choose to define your own reality, and eek out a meaning in that way - an example of dangerous faith, self-centered by definition. Anyway, the consolation I have experienced is very real, whether you think it's baseless or not and it is God centered. It enables one to endure people's selfish nature, whilst not feeding their own.

And where's your evidence? You can't give any. You argue form consolation and then act as if you're right about his existence too without any actual evidence.

Any evidence that I offer you will interpret in your own way - denying my interpretation. Why bother? I don't know if God exists through evidence and logic, I have faith. I don't know if my life and all of my decisions will be Judged by God when He decides I have lived long enough. I choose to believe that I will be held responsible for my decisions, and that God is good and sovereign and will set things right in the end. This enables me to live life to the fullest when I am beaten down by circumstances and even selfish acts by people around me. I can have hope even when the world, which is far beyond my control, is testing me rigorously. This hope enables me to continue doing what I believe God's will must be. It allows me to look after the poor when I am poor myself, etc.

Friends and family actually exist.

Yes, and God may actually exist. I appreciate my friends and family too.

I'd rather devote myself to my friends and family than to God, because at least my friends and family actually exist.

Devoting yourself to your friends and family may lead you to do things that are not compatible with the greater good, thus it is better to devote yourself to God. I work for the benefit of creation, trying to work inline with God's work - even to my own detriment and demise if necessary I'd hope.

And if God does exist, does he actually need any time spent on him?! Isn't he perfect how he is? Why the fuck bother putting any time into God when he's so perfect and I could be spending time with my family and friends? And...which god?

God doesn't absolutely need us to act in any particular way, just as parents don't absolutely need their children to act a very certain way. But God (and the parents) will be pleased when people choose to act a certain way. -- The only God that makes sense to me is the one I choose to believe in - the truths that have been carried down through history, the way the world works, and so on indicate what I must believe.

What evidence is there actually for this God of yours?

All the evidence in the world, though it isn't conclusive it does make sense.

God never fails when sought after with genuine faith.

Evidence that statement or stop barely asserting it.

That's just my personal experience on the matter.

Cos I can just respond with "The Flying Spaghetti Monster never fails when sought after with genuine faith."

I could care less. This isn't your personal experience, it's just a claim you have fabricated - dishonesty.

I like all humans am insecure.

I'm not talking about being 100% superhumanly secure. I'm talking about the fact that you believe you need God for consolation when I don't, could show you as being more insecure than me for instance. I don't need that shit.

I need consolation from God to live according to God's will. If I were to live like you I would be taking consolation and reward from the world instead, and I wouldn't need God, just as you don't. I see your actions as a hindrance to society's moral progress. You're perpetuating what's wrong with the world. This is why I choose to live precariously, being good at my own risk.

...but not in being good in any real way.

And what's "real way" to you?

If people attack me I take it without flinching. If people need help I give it, even when I need more help myself. Stuff like that.

They certainly didn't defend the poor in spirit.

Then either you are deluded or by chance you've ran into some rather bad atheists.

I ran into regular atheists. The poor in spirit are in need of hope more than anyone else. Atheism is the end of all hope.

Atheists are just people who don't believe in God. Religion can motivate you to do immoral things, or to do moral things for non-moral reasons. Either way it's not exactly morally enlightening. Religion either causes more immorality or it causes phony morality, it seems to me.

I've found that religion can enable one to do moral things beyond what one should be able to based upon detectable moral support.

Name one moral act that a religious person can do that an atheist can't. Then think of things such as 911 that are a result of religion.

This isn't about one moral act. This is about being moral consistently even to your own detriment. This is about the long haul, the long run, etc.

The mystery of the universe, our ignorance, disallows us from concluding, through bare logic, that God is the only possible answer behind it all.

Evidence that. You are merely asserting that. How the fuck does logic point to God? Sorry, but it seems to me that you argue from nothing more than personal incredulity and consolation.

You failed to comprehend my statement. I think you'll be agreeing with me when you do understand what was stated.

You should merely consider God possible, if you're only logical.

Prove that.

Prove that God is possible? Are you mad?

I haven't because I can't. Now I'm just explaining how reasonable God is in light of how consoling faith is in the pursuit of good.

Whether it consoles you or not, "he" can't be reasonable if he doesn't exist. For if he doesn't exist there is no "he".

God is a possible explanation of this existence. Uncertainty leads to inaction. I must choose an interpretation of the mystery of our existence in order to live. I choose to live as if God will judge me for every decision I make, because, I think, if everyone did that the world would be the best place it could be.

You must not risk very much then. You live in a safe house. This is indicative of the selfishness you are limited to...

What a pathetic conclusion you have made. How safe is safe? And how the fuck does that indicate selfishness?

My conclusion isn't pathetic, your choosing to live in a safe house is pathetic. Your selfishness is indicated through your excessive self-preservation - and self-serving worldview. You want to be able to do whatever you want that may be pleasurable to yourself, thus you do not believe something that will better the world. You believe something about the universe that will better your own life. You free yourself from the responsibilities that I believe will better the world - responsibility to a Judge of greater good.

I hate to deny reality as well.

Then why does the consolation point matter to you so much? If God doesn't exist then to believe in him because he's consoling ... is to deny reality.

Because consolation enables a person to do more. No it isn't a denial of reality. The reality is unknown. I cannot make decisions according to a mystery. I choose to believe what I see as most logical and most beneficial to the world, so that I can act in the world. You don't know if God exists or not, you assume He doesn't. So, as you say, if God does exist then to not believe in Him is to deny reality.

If you're honest about reality then you are faced with an immense mystery, and this in and of itself isn't consoling in the least.

Maybe not to you. I am interested in reality and mystery. I certainly don't fear mystery. I revel in it.

How do you not fear the mystery of the universe, but revel in it? How funny. You really are on top of the world then.

Mystery and uncertainty are hardly consoling.

They are to me.

How so? So if your parents disappeared you wouldn't want to know if they were dead or alive? You would be happy living in mystery...you wouldn't seek to resolve the mystery...you'd be too busy reveling. Ha-ha.

For sure, the few truths you are aware of are meaningless when set beside the ultimate truth (mystery) of the universe.

I am fascinated in the mystery of the universe. And I don't try to pathetically, superficially, gratuitously explain them away with "God".

Exactly, e.g. you revel in the mystery of your parents disappearance. This is perhaps the most illogical position I've heard in recent memory. To the contrary, I do indeed take on the most meaningful and beneficial explanation of the universe that I can.

I believe that this reality is indicative, though not conclusive, of God.

How is he? You can believe that if you want but I have no fucking idea what the hell you are talking about.

It's a matter more of the heart than the mind. We all know that God is possible. When faced with the mystery of the universe everyone decides to live in some way or another. No one, not even you, dances happily around in the mystery as you just illogically claimed to... No, you say that you define your own morality and you define what your life means --- you, you, you...for you by you, responsible only to you.

I do make a leap of faith due to my pursuit of and reverence to what is good.

I don't need to believe in God to be good. I am good.

Your lifestyle doesn't demand much of you, so it's possible for you to have a self-centered worldview.

You don't have a clue what explanation a fine-tuned universe requires, so you cannot claim that God complicates the explanation.

Well you have yet to prove God. So the complexity of the universe + the complexity of God is more complex than just the complexity of the universe. Adding God into the equation makes it more complex unless you can actually explain how it doesn't. The burden of proof is on you. That is extremely obvious.

You have yet to prove how the universe exists. I don't need to prove God to know that you don't know anything about the explanation of the universe. The "complexity of the universe" may well need the "complexity of God" in order to exist. I'm not trying to prove God so the burden of proof is not on me. You have just made the positive claim that "the complexity of the universe + the complexity of God is more complex than just the complexity of the universe" - this doesn't hold up because you haven't shown that the "complexity of the universe" can exist apart from the "complexity of God". The burden of proof is on the claimant, I think that is obvious, and I know you'll agree if your honest.

Before we have evidence of either God or how the universe is so complex. Then the problem of God's existnece + the universe is more of a problem than just the universe. Because until you evidence God, it's infinitely more rational to cut out the middle man. Because it's extremely fucking irrational special pleading to just take God on faith but not apply to same logic to other things, even when the same logic should apply.

What are you talking about friend? You start with a fragment. You buttress that with nonsense, some vulgarity, and some more nonsense.

It may well be that God is the simplest viable explanation of this universe and our existence that very much hangs in the balance.

It may be. But what fucking reason have you got to believe that? And what reason have you got to believe there's one in the first place? That's just wishful thinking on your part. Extremely irrational.

So you concede that God may be the best explanation.
What reason do I have for believing? Well, I could dance around in mystery like a dumbass, or I could accept a meaning to the universe and live. I choose to live as if I will be held responsible for my actions, and I think everyone should do the same. That would be great for the world - belief in God.

---

Ok, how?

Simple, being socially minded.

So when society wants you dead, you'll die?

I generally do care about others well being.

Except when it conflicts with your own interests, right?

As much as you can in fact.

I know, keep it up.

Tell me, why do I need some imaginary friend in order to do good if I can already do good without such a thing?

Because doing good in a hopeless situation is not possible without faith.

Sustained, secret good, such that you are not rewarded. This isn't a competition, by the way...though I'm sure you'd put on a great show in order to "win" against me.

I was not asking for a competition. I simply asked what is it you think I cannot do. The above you mentioned is something I can and have already done.

Sustained...long term giving more than receiving. I imagine this isn't something you've already done. Once you die and your life is reviewed, then we'll know.

I do things for others despite there being no reward for me. I've done things that I will not gain from but others gain from it. So you are dead wrong there. I can do all the good in the world just as you can. It's just I don't need a religion or some god thing to give me a reason to do it.

Keep it up.

Thanks Ace for rehashing what EvF just said and making the same mistakes.

If you think I'm wrong then answer the blood questions that I put as an example! Don't just say I'm wrong and dance around my points, answer them or say nothing.

If you want to read my responses look at the stuff directed at EvF. You copied him. I responded to the original viewpoint, not the duplicate perpetrated by you. If you want me to respond to some other points you made that weren't plagiarized then you'll have to wait, perhaps forever. I can't respond to everything and much would just be a waste of time (i.e. I should be doing better things).

[Ace Otana]

So when society wants you dead, you'll die?

That made no sense at all.
*Facepalm*

Except when it conflicts with your own interests, right?

No. Not entirely.

Because doing good in a hopeless situation is not possible without faith.

Then the way I have lived my life contradicts your beliefs. Like I've said before, if you think it's pointless to do any good without a god or some afterlife then feel free to jump of a cliff. I won't stop you.

Sustained...long term giving more than receiving. I imagine this isn't something you've already done. Once you die and your life is reviewed, then we'll know.

I can imagine that it is something you have never done. Am I right to assume that? Are you right to assume that I haven't? No, of course not! You don't know me so who the hell are you to say what I've done or not? I have given many times and happily too. No gain either apart from some self respect.
Just because I'm an atheist doesn't mean I'm some horrible person who doesn't care. Quite the opposite!

I responded to the original viewpoint, not the duplicate perpetrated by you.

Sounds to me you can't handle it. Ok then, all I want from you is to answer a few questions. Since you are the claimer.
1. What is the purpose of god?
2. If god is all perfect, why would he create the universe?
3. What can god gain from anything, can he become more than what he is or is he completely devoid of meaning and purpose?
----
These are questions that are to be asked if you add god as a answer for what caused the universe. God seems to raise many questions and so I expect answers.
--
I think I know why you didn't want me to add my own points to EvF's. I wasn't copying his post, I was adding points and now I'm accusing you of avoiding/evading those points I made. Read EvF's post then mine and see the differance. If you refuse then I will copy the points I made for you to answer. Why don't I do it now?

"why would god create it? What does he gain out of creating something if he is perfect in every way? What is the purpose of god's existence if he cannot be anything more than what he is? What evidence is there to say that a god exists?"

Can you anwer those points or will you make some excuse for evading it again?