Philosophical help with a Christian debate

[Lion IRC]

I'm not going to tell someone who has a metaphysical experience that they did NOT perceive anything.

I would inform them of their delusions without hesitation.

What if you are the one who is deluded?

If 500 people claim they saw a miracle, how can science prove they did not?

It is not the job of science to inform them they are deluded.

Rrrrrrrright....science doesnt need to because you just said YOU would inform them.

...Reason should already inform them that they are.

Make up your mind. Now you're suggesting deluded people can decide for themselves.

is my dog going insane? Deluded?

Yes.

I shall tell her you said that.

[Foxaèr]

What if you are the one who is deluded?

Impossible, since I do not believe fairy tales are real.

[Lion IRC]

What if you are the one who is deluded?

Impossible, since I do not believe fairy tales are real.

Neither do I.

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"...once upon a time there was a great nothingness and suddenly something appeared out of nowhere and started expanding into the nothingness and getting faster all the time."

[Something completely different]

Impossible, since I do not believe fairy tales are real.

Neither do I.

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"...once upon a time there was a great nothingness and suddenly something appear out of nowhere and started expanding into the nothingness and getting faster all the time."

Ever heard of the famous laconian phrase used during the wars in which King Phillip the second of Macedon tried to conquere Sparta?

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Phillip the second King of Macedon, famous for being the father of Alexander of Macedon, who would be later known as "Alexander the Great", went on a conquest to unite all the Greek city states under his rule in 340 BCE. When Phillip continued his conquest into southern Greece to conquere the city state of Sparta, he was well aware of the reputation that the Spartans had gained in previous history during the various civil wars in Greece and the Persian wars. He knew that it would be a lenghty and bloody war and therefor sent the Spartans a message that read:

"You are advised to submit without further delay, for if I bring my army into your land, I will destroy your farms, slay your people, and raze your city."

The Spartans sent back a message that read:

"if"

Both Phillip the second and Alexander the Great never conquered Sparta. They avoided it.

[Lion IRC]

[Faith No More]

Different sentient beings have differing degrees of perception of the outside world. I'm not going to tell someone who has a metaphysical experience that they did NOT perceive anything.

John Locke conceded that you cant argue with or against metaphysics. You can try to keep it separate from other, more easily measured modes of defining reality, but metaphysics is virtually unassailable by our primitive empirical tools of science. (telescope, microscope, durometer, cash register...)

If 500 people claim they saw a miracle, how can science prove they did not? If my dog claims to hear voices which are inaudible to me, or thinks she can see stuff which I cant see (at night) is my dog going insane? Deluded?

I think you are confusing "metaphysical" with "supernatural."

Regardless, science can, and does, deal with perception and miracles. Miracles can easily be disproven by showing them to have a natural explanation, and circumstances can be recreated to test whether or not the senses were being deceived. There may be an instance where we can't scientifically prove whether people actually saw a miracle, but that does not mean that science can't deal with such claims. Science deals with how the natural world works, and a miracle is a claim of natural law being violated, which is something science can test.