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RE: Why atheism always has a burden of proof
October 10, 2013 at 9:26 am
(October 10, 2013 at 9:17 am)Sword of Christ Wrote: This isn't a reaction to a chemical or drug but an action of consciousness itself on the brain. But this is all we can physically observe and is the limit of science.
I wasn't talking about drugs. How do you think they detected the brain activity?
'The more I learn about people the more I like my dog'- Mark Twain
'You can have all the faith you want in spirits, and the afterlife, and heaven and hell, but when it comes to this world, don't be an idiot. Cause you can tell me you put your faith in God to put you through the day, but when it comes time to cross the road, I know you look both ways.' - Dr House
“Young earth creationism is essentially the position that all of modern science, 90% of living scientists and 98% of living biologists, all major university biology departments, every major science journal, the American Academy of Sciences, and every major science organization in the world, are all wrong regarding the origins and development of life….but one particular tribe of uneducated, bronze aged, goat herders got it exactly right.” - Chuck Easttom
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RE: Why atheism always has a burden of proof
October 10, 2013 at 9:28 am
(This post was last modified: October 10, 2013 at 9:28 am by Sword of Christ.)
(October 10, 2013 at 9:26 am)Rationalman Wrote: I wasn't talking about drugs. How do you think they detected the brain activity?
We can scientifically detect and observe what happens in the brain when some has a spiritual or religious experience and you can offer an explanation for it based on what you personally believe. What you personally believe isn't the scientific bit.
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RE: Why atheism always has a burden of proof
October 10, 2013 at 9:30 am
My point was they detect brain activity by monitoring either the chemicals going in or out or the electrical activity commonly known as brainwaves
'The more I learn about people the more I like my dog'- Mark Twain
'You can have all the faith you want in spirits, and the afterlife, and heaven and hell, but when it comes to this world, don't be an idiot. Cause you can tell me you put your faith in God to put you through the day, but when it comes time to cross the road, I know you look both ways.' - Dr House
“Young earth creationism is essentially the position that all of modern science, 90% of living scientists and 98% of living biologists, all major university biology departments, every major science journal, the American Academy of Sciences, and every major science organization in the world, are all wrong regarding the origins and development of life….but one particular tribe of uneducated, bronze aged, goat herders got it exactly right.” - Chuck Easttom
"If my good friend Doctor Gasparri speaks badly of my mother, he can expect to get punched.....You cannot provoke. You cannot insult the faith of others. You cannot make fun of the faith of others. There is a limit." - Pope Francis on freedom of speech
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RE: Why atheism always has a burden of proof
October 10, 2013 at 9:32 am
(This post was last modified: October 10, 2013 at 9:35 am by Sword of Christ.)
(October 10, 2013 at 9:30 am)Rationalman Wrote: My point was they detect brain activity by monitoring either the chemicals going in or out or the electrical activity commonly known as brainwaves
Yes that's what we can observe. We can't observe someones subjective experience of God though nor can we observe God if he does exist. You can't have a burden of proof for something that cannot be proven.
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RE: Why atheism always has a burden of proof
October 10, 2013 at 10:20 am
(October 10, 2013 at 7:26 am)Sword of Christ Wrote: We can observe that people do enter into a physically observable spiritual state but of course we can't prove God is the source of the cause. Because we can't observe God.
Those images show that different areas of the brain are more active when performing different actions. This isn't anything surprising and it's certainly not indicative of a "spiritual state." Researchers continue to study the brain and as far as I am aware have mapped out regions of activity and regions that perform different tasks. It stands to reason that brain activity would change depending on what we're doing and thinking.
How is any of that indicative of a "spiritual state"?
"Well, evolution is a theory. It is also a fact. And facts and theories are different things, not rungs in a hierarchy of increasing certainty. Facts are the world's data. Theories are structures of ideas that explain and interpret facts. Facts don't go away when scientists debate rival theories to explain them. Einstein's theory of gravitation replaced Newton's in this century, but apples didn't suspend themselves in midair, pending the outcome. And humans evolved from ape- like ancestors whether they did so by Darwin's proposed mechanism or by some other yet to be discovered."
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RE: Why atheism always has a burden of proof
October 10, 2013 at 10:42 am
(October 10, 2013 at 9:32 am)Sword of Christ Wrote: Yes that's what we can observe. We can't observe someones subjective experience of God though nor can we observe God if he does exist. You can't have a burden of proof for something that cannot be proven.
If you can't prove something either way then what is the point in believing in it? If you can't falsify a hypothesis, its a shit hypothesis
'The more I learn about people the more I like my dog'- Mark Twain
'You can have all the faith you want in spirits, and the afterlife, and heaven and hell, but when it comes to this world, don't be an idiot. Cause you can tell me you put your faith in God to put you through the day, but when it comes time to cross the road, I know you look both ways.' - Dr House
“Young earth creationism is essentially the position that all of modern science, 90% of living scientists and 98% of living biologists, all major university biology departments, every major science journal, the American Academy of Sciences, and every major science organization in the world, are all wrong regarding the origins and development of life….but one particular tribe of uneducated, bronze aged, goat herders got it exactly right.” - Chuck Easttom
"If my good friend Doctor Gasparri speaks badly of my mother, he can expect to get punched.....You cannot provoke. You cannot insult the faith of others. You cannot make fun of the faith of others. There is a limit." - Pope Francis on freedom of speech
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RE: Why atheism always has a burden of proof
October 10, 2013 at 10:44 am
(October 10, 2013 at 10:20 am)Tonus Wrote: Those images show that different areas of the brain are more active when performing different actions.
The observable reaction to these actions being different to just normal talking or being a relaxed state or whatever. So you can least demonstrate that is a function of some kind there to accompany the experience they aren't simply live action roleplaying. You can't prove it's God though.
Quote: This isn't anything surprising and it's certainly not indicative of a "spiritual state." Researchers continue to study the brain and as far as I am aware have mapped out regions of activity and regions that perform different tasks. It stands to reason that brain activity would change depending on what we're doing and thinking.
Of course and prayer demonstrates a real physical effect on the brain. Something consciousness itself is doing to the brain in this case. I don't think you could do something like this if as like you believe it is merely a byproduct or secretion of the brain itself. You can see the the relationship between conscious and matter goes both ways.
Quote: How is any of that indicative of a "spiritual state"?
People involved claim to be having one and we have a look their brain while they're at it so that's the brain state of someone having an encounter with God, if that's what it is you can't prove anything beyond what you can see and detect.
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RE: Why atheism always has a burden of proof
October 10, 2013 at 11:04 am
So if you can't physically detect god, how do you know he's there? How do you distinguish what you believe from a delusion?
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RE: Why atheism always has a burden of proof
October 10, 2013 at 11:15 am
I don't think it's surprising that what we believe affects our physical state. A person may react calmly to a sound in the dark if he believes that it is just the wind causing a branch to tap on the window, whereas he may react with concern if he thinks it is an intruder, and with terrified hysterics if he believes it is a demonic spirit that seeks to harm him. His belief may or may not be true, but that doesn't affect the reaction.
We can look at brain scans and relate them to moods or mental states, but we cannot say that it is indicative of any metaphysical phenomena. After all, if the idea is that it cannot be detected, then the brain scans cannot possibly be pointing to that conclusion, could they?
"Well, evolution is a theory. It is also a fact. And facts and theories are different things, not rungs in a hierarchy of increasing certainty. Facts are the world's data. Theories are structures of ideas that explain and interpret facts. Facts don't go away when scientists debate rival theories to explain them. Einstein's theory of gravitation replaced Newton's in this century, but apples didn't suspend themselves in midair, pending the outcome. And humans evolved from ape- like ancestors whether they did so by Darwin's proposed mechanism or by some other yet to be discovered."
-Stephen Jay Gould
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RE: Why atheism always has a burden of proof
October 10, 2013 at 11:31 am
(October 10, 2013 at 5:36 am)Sword of Christ Wrote: You can't prove the non-existence of God though you can't prove the existence of God scientifically like that as he isn't physically detectable in any form. No-one has a burden of proof only a belief either way.
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