The vast complexity of living things proves that God exists (proof 1)

[Esquilax]

It does present a problem for atheistic origin science.
In reality according to AOS, both are descendants of a common ancestor, and that both evolved over the same time from that ancestor.

So why is their DNA code sizes so different?
There is one amoeba with a code 200x the size as that for mankind.

Because there's no requirement that the sizes be the same, or be in concordance with the complexity of the organism, and the theory of evolution has never demanded otherwise?

I can understand why you'd think that, it has a certain amount of intuitive logic to it, but it's just not the case; the question isn't "why is this so?" but rather "what advantage does this confer to the amoeba?"

Incidentally, I did what you did not, which is look this up first: maybe this would clear things up a bit? See, before you call something a problem for atheists, you should make sure that is the case, but we already had an answer before you posed the claim so I have to ask: did you bother looking before you posted any of this?

This topic was to show that there must be an explanation for the complexity of life.

Yes. Yes, there must be an explanation. However, silence from one corner as to what that explanation might be does not make yours correct by default. Think about that.

Or a fallen and cursed creation as the result of the sin of Adam and Eve.

Why would giraffe necks change because of something Adam and Eve did?

Prove your assertion, don't just make it.

BTW, since the 18th century, the case against atheistic origin science is now even greater because of the discoveries in DNA, RNA, and the workings of the cell.

Alright, hot shot: how?

When an atheist proposes God as a rebuttal, the atheist has disproved himself.

Only if you're a deist. But you aren't, are you? You're a christian.

All gods are not your god. And hypotheticals do not mean we believe in god, they just mean we're asking you to account for variables you haven't yet addressed.

Atheistic origin science has completely failed to explain the universe and life.

So has religion. Science has gotten us further.

How do you know it will ever be able to?

Even if it doesn't, it'll be further along that religion.

Oh, and, argument from ignorance.

Again.

[max-greece]

Wow - what a torrent of information that was. Very good effort, almost convincing in parts.

As ever, though, there is a problem or two (well a few more actually) but in order to address those we need to get you to stop sitting back admiring your work and actually read what is being written.

If you do this you will realize that what you have put together - magnificent as it is - is entirely wrong.

We'll take this one step at a time:

Argument number 1:

Let us start with the assumption that there is a designer God. We will further incorporate all the infallible, all knowing stuff.

So we have perfect God making life perfectly in all its profundity.

God made everything - from the smallest amoeba to Humans, from ants to giraffes and so on.

Now as you know a human being is a much more complex creature than an amoeba which would require much less coding from God to make it.

The RNA that codes for Amoeba's is obviously much simpler than that for a human being, right?

Trouble is - the RNA code for an amoeba is 5 times larger than the DNA code for a human being.....

Which either means we have a God learning on the job or there is no God.

But God knows everything - so he can't be learning on the job.

Therefore, there is no God.

I do not believe that that holds.

You are making an assumption about how God created.

It does present a problem for atheistic origin science.
In reality according to AOS, both are descendants of a common ancestor, and that both evolved over the same time from that ancestor.

So why is their DNA code sizes so different?
There is one amoeba with a code 200x the size as that for mankind.

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Well, first of all, no it doesn't; we're not required to disprove a thing before you give it up. Quite the reverse; if you want to be taken seriously you need to demonstrate your claims, not simply throw your arms wide and say "look at all these things that exist!" as you have so far.

Your accusation here is a shifting of the burden of proof. God is not the neutral position, it's a claim that needs proving, not just asserting.

Second of all, we do have numerous explanations, in the science you deride because it disagrees with your assumed conclusions. Would you be willing to do some research in mainstream science?


And these questions are being worked on. Us not having an answer now does not make your answer true just because you took the time to propose it.


Well, just so long as you have an open mind.


Could it have actual evidence, when you do?

This topic was to show that there must be an explanation for the complexity of life.

The next topic is to evaluate what is the explanation given by atheistic origin science and can it stand up.

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Yawn. The Argument from Design. William Paley did a better job on it in the 18th century, and with more excuse since the facts telling against design were largely unknown then.

As a young man Charles Darwin believed in the watchmaker argument for a creator. After he had spent about 3 decades piling up a mass of facts, he could see it wouldn't work, and he came up with something much better.

First, it is wrong to say that natural objects never organize themselves. The waves do a very nice job of sorting stones by size on a beach.

Second, living organisms have so many design flaws that it is ludicrous to think they are the product of intelligent design. That was why I finally stopped clinging to pantheism years after I had abandoned Christianity. Just a few examples.

The human eye is very poorly designed. The optic nerve produces a huge blind spot on the retina, which we don't notice because of the software in our brains. It has been said, that an engineer would be fired if he designed a digital camera with a similar flaw. Apparently, the octopus has a much better designed eye. However, what evolution gave us is a lot better than some animals have, and so it gave homo a competitive advantage.

My favorite example is the recurrent laryngeal nerve. It runs from the brain, down into the chest, loops around the aorta, and comes back up to connect with the larynx, which is what it controls. In humans the detour adds 18 inches; in giraffes it adds some 15 feet. The reason for this bizarre arrangement is that evolution produced the larynx from the gills of our fishy ancestors, so the nerve had a short route from the brain to the gills looping in behind one blood vessel, but as we evolved that blood vessel sank way down into the chest.

If anyone is interested, dozens of design flaws in organisms are listed at Some More of God's Greatest Mistakes.

Or a fallen and cursed creation as the result of the sin of Adam and Eve.

BTW, since the 18th century, the case against atheistic origin science is now even greater because of the discoveries in DNA, RNA, and the workings of the cell.

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tl;dr the OP but I could tell from the title that it was one big fallacious argument from design.

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First of all, how do you know it was God that created the entire universe and not some other magical, powerful being?

And who or what created God?

When an atheist proposes God as a rebuttal, the atheist has disproved himself.

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No, it does not require us to do anything at all. Only your infantile requirement for absolute answers to questions requires that.


Our attempts at explaining how the universe works get better all the time.
Humanity is in its cognitive childhood.
Civilization is only a few thousand years old, the Enlightenment a few hundred, and knowledge of evolution only fifteen decades.

We're working on it.

Atheistic origin science has completely failed to explain the universe and life.

How do you know it will ever be able to?

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[xpastor]

In response to my comments on design flaws in living organisms

Or a fallen and cursed creation as the result of the sin of Adam and Eve.

BTW, since the 18th century, the case against atheistic origin science is now even greater because of the discoveries in DNA, RNA, and the workings of the cell.

Gimme a break. You propose as a magical explanation for the wonky path of the recurrent laryngeal nerve a process for which there is absolutely no evidence: the sin of Adam and Eve messing up all the rest of the world. There isn't even a statement of this in the Bible itself, just one vague sentence in Romans 8:22 (the whole creation groaneth and travaileth in pain together) which various theologians have riffed on. So what did the pre-Fall giraffe look like? How long was its neck?

As for DNA, if it's such great evidence for creationism, why are the vast majority of genetic scientists evolutionists? Why do they confidently use DNA to measure the degree of relationship between widely disparate species and to estimate the millions of years between various evolutionary stages?

[SavedByGraceThruFaith]

In response to my comments on design flaws in living organisms

Or a fallen and cursed creation as the result of the sin of Adam and Eve.

BTW, since the 18th century, the case against atheistic origin science is now even greater because of the discoveries in DNA, RNA, and the workings of the cell.

Gimme a break. You propose as a magical explanation for the wonky path of the recurrent laryngeal nerve a process for which there is absolutely no evidence: the sin of Adam and Eve messing up all the rest of the world. There isn't even a statement of this in the Bible itself, just one vague sentence in Romans 8:22 (the whole creation groaneth and travaileth in pain together) which various theologians have riffed on. So what did the pre-Fall giraffe look like? How long was its neck?

As for DNA, if it's such great evidence for creationism, why are the vast majority of genetic scientists evolutionists? Why do they confidently use DNA to measure the degree of relationship between widely disparate species and to estimate the millions of years between various evolutionary stages?

The vast majority are deceived.

[Brian37]

In response to my comments on design flaws in living organisms
Gimme a break. You propose as a magical explanation for the wonky path of the recurrent laryngeal nerve a process for which there is absolutely no evidence: the sin of Adam and Eve messing up all the rest of the world. There isn't even a statement of this in the Bible itself, just one vague sentence in Romans 8:22 (the whole creation groaneth and travaileth in pain together) which various theologians have riffed on. So what did the pre-Fall giraffe look like? How long was its neck?

As for DNA, if it's such great evidence for creationism, why are the vast majority of genetic scientists evolutionists? Why do they confidently use DNA to measure the degree of relationship between widely disparate species and to estimate the millions of years between various evolutionary stages?

The vast majority are deceived.

I agree, you are deceived, so are Muslims and Jews and Hindus and Mormons and Catholics and Jews. Just like morons who believe in Big Foot and the Loc Ness Monster.

I'll make you a deal though. Get your pet god claim to the patient office and win a Nobel Prize, then we can talk. Until then you are in the same line as any other person with a pet god claim.

[SavedByGraceThruFaith]

The vast majority are deceived.

I agree, you are deceived, so are Muslims and Jews and Hindus and Mormons and Catholics and Jews. Just like morons who believe in Big Foot and the Loc Ness Monster.

I'll make you a deal though. Get your pet god claim to the patient office and win a Nobel Prize, then we can talk. Until then you are in the same line as any other person with a pet god claim.

I am just Christian.

[xpastor]

In response to my comments on design flaws in living organisms
Gimme a break. You propose as a magical explanation for the wonky path of the recurrent laryngeal nerve a process for which there is absolutely no evidence: the sin of Adam and Eve messing up all the rest of the world. There isn't even a statement of this in the Bible itself, just one vague sentence in Romans 8:22 (the whole creation groaneth and travaileth in pain together) which various theologians have riffed on. So what did the pre-Fall giraffe look like? How long was its neck?

As for DNA, if it's such great evidence for creationism, why are the vast majority of genetic scientists evolutionists? Why do they confidently use DNA to measure the degree of relationship between widely disparate species and to estimate the millions of years between various evolutionary stages?

The vast majority are deceived.

You didn't answer my question about the giraffe's neck and ignored my comment that even in the bible there is no statement about this ridiculous story of a fallen creation.

"The vast majority are deceived." You must be into conspiracy theories. So you think that only a bunch of people who have no scientific education are correct when they cling to the predetermined claims of a few fellow fundamentalists with science degrees who can't get themselves published in peer-reviewed journals. If there were compelling evidence for the creation fairy tale, real scientists would acknowledge it.

[Doubting Thomas]

Or a fallen and cursed creation as the result of the sin of Adam and Eve.

So you're saying that everyone's bodies were perfect, but the second Adam & Eve ate the fruit then our bodies got all fucked up?

First of all, how do you know it was God that created the entire universe and not some other magical, powerful being?

And who or what created God?

When an atheist proposes God as a rebuttal, the atheist has disproved himself.

Please show where I proposed a god as a rebuttal? All I'm asking is how do you know that the creator of the universe is Yahweh and not the Flying Spaghetti Monster, as a hypothetical? How do you know it wasn't aliens from a parallel universe who created life on earth? How do you know that the entire universe isn't some strange science experiment in a jar in some huge, massive laboratory in some mega-universe?

I can ask questions about gods and still be an atheist just like I can ask questions about flowers without being a botanist.

And again, if you're going to assert intelligent design, who or what designed the designer?

Atheistic origin science has completely failed to explain the universe and life.

As has Christianity. At least with science, "I don't know" is a valid answer and leads to more discovery. All Christianity has is "Goddidit, so shut up and keep praying" which stifles scientific discovery.

[Crossless2.0]

In response to my comments on design flaws in living organisms
Gimme a break. You propose as a magical explanation for the wonky path of the recurrent laryngeal nerve a process for which there is absolutely no evidence: the sin of Adam and Eve messing up all the rest of the world. There isn't even a statement of this in the Bible itself, just one vague sentence in Romans 8:22 (the whole creation groaneth and travaileth in pain together) which various theologians have riffed on. So what did the pre-Fall giraffe look like? How long was its neck?

As for DNA, if it's such great evidence for creationism, why are the vast majority of genetic scientists evolutionists? Why do they confidently use DNA to measure the degree of relationship between widely disparate species and to estimate the millions of years between various evolutionary stages?

The vast majority are deceived.

Are you trying to break some record for unsubstantiated claims? Are you even reading the thoughtful responses people are giving you? This stubborn loud-and-proud ignorance isn't becoming.

[Bad Writer]

Well, this asshole has already made up his mind that he is correct no matter what, so any rebuttal, no matter how drenched in research and fact it may be, is still wrong.