And Hells come back to haunt me

[snowtracks]

I never mentioned proof, let alone demanded it. I only spoke of evidence. And it has to be credible - in other words, it must stand up to scrutiny, support whatever you're trying to assert, and not merely be a blatant attempt to discredit your opponents. As per your little ad hom at the end, there. If you can't or won't support your claims sufficiently, it's not my fault. Maybe you need better claims?

(Before we continue, and continue I prophesy we will, I just want to thank you for being the catalyst to my 8k medal! Yay!)

I only spoke of evidence.------------------------ fair enough.

[snowtracks]

The resurrection of Jesus Christ is the proof.
Here's the deal: if God created the U., nothing needs to be explained since it was 'created' (blueprint to construction). one may desire to learn the methodization but no explanation needed; whereas, if one doesn't like the idea of God, then they need to get real busy with the 'prove it' non-creation evidence that by now has been cleverly and clearly fashion together. you that worship at the altar of science, lets see what you got.

[Esquilax]

The resurrection of Jesus Christ is the proof.

So go ahead and prove that that happened. Go on, I'll wait.

Here's the deal: if God created the U., nothing needs to be explained since it was 'created' (blueprint to construction). one may desire to learn the methodization but no explanation needed; whereas, if one doesn't like the idea of God, then they need to get real busy with the 'prove it' non-creation evidence that by now has been cleverly and clearly fashion together. you that worship at the altar of science, lets see what you got.

So, do you just make up the rules to this game in your head? Because, that would make sense: you're being childish. "I don't have to explain anything, but you have to explain everything." Are you serious?

You have literally laid out the thought process of every creationist and science-denier in the world.

[Zazzy]

you that worship at the altar of science

No, no, NO!

We worship at the altar of DAWKINS. Oh, how beautiful the baby blood looks sprayed across the black altar of the Great Dawkins. All hail the power and majesty of ATHEISM, which by EVOLUTION will SMITE the unbelievers, and woe until them VERILY, I say.

Please do get it right, snowtracks. It's hard to take you seriously when you keep misrepresenting our gods.

[snowtracks]

you that worship at the altar of science

No, no, NO!

We worship at the altar of DAWKINS. Oh, how beautiful the baby blood looks sprayed across the black altar of the Great Dawkins. All hail the power and majesty of ATHEISM, which by EVOLUTION will SMITE the unbelievers, and woe until them VERILY, I say.

Please do get it right, snowtracks. It's hard to take you seriously when you keep misrepresenting our gods.

dawkins wants you to know about the infinite regression of the multiverse, can you handle it?

[Zazzy]

No, no, NO!

We worship at the altar of DAWKINS. Oh, how beautiful the baby blood looks sprayed across the black altar of the Great Dawkins. All hail the power and majesty of ATHEISM, which by EVOLUTION will SMITE the unbelievers, and woe until them VERILY, I say.

Please do get it right, snowtracks. It's hard to take you seriously when you keep misrepresenting our gods.

dawkins wants you to know about the infinite regression of the multiverse, can you handle it?

The GREAT AND MIGHTY Dawkins wants me to sacrifice Christian babies on the altar of UNBELIEF. And LO, I will recite DNA code as I offer innocent blood. Dawkins is INFINITE and exists in all the MULTIVERSE, and commands us all to REGRESS from heathen states of theism or SUFFER eternal consequences. Again, I say VERILY.

[Cyberman]

The resurrection of Jesus Christ is the proof.

No, that's the claim.

Let me see if I can put it another way. I claim I can bend spoons just by staring at them. You ask me to prove it. I say that I proved it by bending a spoon yesterday. You ask for real proof. I reply that God spoke to me in a dream and told me my spoon-bending gift is genuine. And so on.

Here's the thing. Claim + claim + claim =/= proof. Even if (and it's a humongous if) it was proven beyond all doubt that the Universe was deliberately and intelligently created by some entity, there would still be no way you could leap from that to anything else you want to attach to it from your religious book without evidence even to suggest it.

[snowtracks]

The resurrection of Jesus Christ is the proof.

No, that's the claim.

Let me see if I can put it another way. I claim I can bend spoons just by staring at them. You ask me to prove it. I say that I proved it by bending a spoon yesterday. You ask for real proof. I reply that God spoke to me in a dream and told me my spoon-bending gift is genuine. And so on.

Here's the thing. Claim + claim + claim =/= proof. Even if (and it's a humongous if) it was proven beyond all doubt that the Universe was deliberately and intelligently created by some entity, there would still be no way you could leap from that to anything else you want to attach to it from your religious book without evidence even to suggest it.

so it is true then that if the U. was intelligently created, no other explanation would be required. the dream thing is getting silly.

[Cyberman]

First you have to establish what you are setting out to prove, ie that the Universe actually was intelligently created. Only then can you even think of moving to the next stage. It's like someone being put on trial; it's vital to establish that there even was a crime committed long before booking the courtroom. That's why going straight from arrest to sentence is known as summary justice (or a lynch mob) and generally regarded as A Bad Thing.

As for the dream being silly, I totally agree. But it's no more so than pointing to bits from a storybook. I just used it to illustrate just how silly.

[snowtracks]

First you have to establish what you are setting out to prove, ie that the Universe actually was intelligently created. Only then can you even think of moving to the next stage. It's like someone being put on trial; it's vital to establish that there even was a crime committed long before booking the courtroom. That's why going straight from arrest to sentence is known as summary justice (or a lynch mob) and generally regarded as A Bad Thing.

As for the dream being silly, I totally agree. But it's no more so than pointing to bits from a storybook. I just used it to illustrate just how silly.

Universe actually was intelligently created ------------- starting with a hypothesis that it was created, the observations makes sense. that's the proof. now, if the simplest explanation is not acceptable to you then the more complicated method needs to be explained and without this idea of 'appealing to future'.