(October 16, 2013 at 10:35 pm)ChadWooters Wrote:NOW... I know you are a poe.(October 16, 2013 at 9:32 pm)freedomfromfallacy Wrote: In separate posts in this thread. I do believe he's coming around. Now if only he could stop raping sheep...Hey if you're going to quote me, get it right. BTW the sheep had it coming.
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Is There a Point To Living a Moral Life?
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I act morally to the people I know and like or if its serves me better. Everyone else gets Ayn Rand style.
 (October 16, 2013 at 9:04 pm)ChadWooters Wrote:(October 16, 2013 at 9:02 pm)BadWriterSparty Wrote: The above post by Chad is a clear-cut example of sarcasm falling flat.Was that sarcastic? Oh, you. ![[Image: 10314461_875206779161622_3907189760171701548_n.jpg]](https://scontent-a-dfw.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-xfp1/t1.0-9/10314461_875206779161622_3907189760171701548_n.jpg)
(October 17, 2013 at 12:40 am)ronedee Wrote: But, I didn't really get the answer to the more important second question; Where is the line drawn?Well, I guess I could have jacked his car and stolen his groceries and wallet. http://atheistforums.org/post-526086.html#pid526086 There is your line poe; swallow it whole. (October 16, 2013 at 9:12 pm)ChadWooters Wrote:(October 16, 2013 at 9:08 pm)Ivy Wrote: I don't want you to fuck my partner, so I won't fuck yours. I don't want you to steal my goods, so I won't steal yours.But if you wanted to fuck and steal and you knew you could get away with it what's stopping you? How about the thing called "conscience"?  RE: Is There a Point To Living a Moral Life?
October 17, 2013 at 2:51 am
(This post was last modified: October 17, 2013 at 2:52 am by max-greece.)
(October 16, 2013 at 8:23 pm)ronedee Wrote: ...for an Atheist that is? Lets pile onto this Drich's response and deal with the 2 together shall we? "Why should you lead a moral life? Because you fear jail? Being Raped in prison? Those are my reasons." At the risk of boring regular readers to death this is my big problem with your religion. The foundation of your religion is that humanity is so bad that it required a human sacrifice to save us. This is something that I reject out-of-hand, whilst giving an involuntary shudder. It makes you incapable of seeing that people can be good simply for the sake of it. Let me therefore, give you the selfish side of why being "good" is the choice I make, assuming the concept of altruism is really lost on you. Why are people ethical/moral? In the main - simply because it feels good to be so. That's good as in heart warming, not as in all superior and proud as the religious might want to portray it. I din't really have to address the big issues - rape, murder etc.- I would hope those are obvious to all. Those are just innately wrong - against programming - evolutionarily disadvantageous - call it what you will. Lets look at the little issues: I am not sure at what age it happened but there was a point when I realised that giving a gift to someone actually felt better than receiving one. I got more out of the giving than the receiving. Certainly as a parent you become fully aware of this, but I do think, in my own case, it happened rather earlier. I think this relates to a concept that I have seen called "random acts of kindness." It is something I practise whenever possible. These can be tiny stupid things. Outside the supermarket you need the right change to unlock a shopping trolley (50 cents). Old guy struggling - can't find the change - can't even see the change in his own hand properly. I give him my empty returning trolley and refuse his offer to pay me the 50 cents. He's grateful - but I could feel good about that all day. For 50 cents that's quite the bargain. I've written before about why I value honesty - it was a traumatic event in my own life. Whatever cost that might have in my life (and its been pretty minimal so far) is nothing to the ease with which I drift off into sleep each evening. Are you starting to understand yet? Its not God, the Boogie man, the police, the courts, the legal system that impacts any of this. This is an entirely internal process - devoid of external influence. I think it is a natural state, or target state. Why am I good? Because I like the way it makes me feel.  (October 16, 2013 at 8:23 pm)ronedee Wrote: What do you have to answer to? Is there a point to living any kind of "honest" life? What do I have to answer to? The billions of other people on this planet, and the smaller group of those that I care about and want to be happy. The fact that you don't seem to see this as sufficient is the most telling thing of all.
"YOU take the hard look in the mirror. You are everything that is wrong with this world. The only thing important to you, is you." - ronedee
Want to see more of my writing? Check out my (safe for work!) site, Unprotected Sects!  (October 17, 2013 at 12:40 am)ronedee Wrote: Most of you did answer the first question. And interestingly enough, society (or pack) seems to form "reactions" to actions perpetrated! So, if society broken down (total chaos) then for many of you, so would your moral compass. That's probably true for a lot of Christians too! But when we (Christians) are held to a higher source, society is not our standard to live by. But most Christians will also admit that they cannot possibly meet their own standard, due to the imperfection they inherited from Adam and Eve. Another reminder that the universe "with god" doesn't appear to work any differently than a universe without him. In spite of having a set of moral rules that cover everything from how you act to how you think, and which imply that your life is much better if you follow them all, Christians seem no less fallible than the godless immoral filth that surround them. So where is the difference, I wonder? It seems to me that a Christian is just as likely to lie his way out of a difficult situation as anyone else, blaming it on "imperfection." And your average non-believer seems no more likely to brutally beat up an old lady than your average Christian, even if he thought he might get away with it. I am thinking that for many crimes (and for many "crimes") the likelihood that one or the other will commit it is not that different. The main difference would be in the justifications afterwards.
"Well, evolution is a theory. It is also a fact. And facts and theories are different things, not rungs in a hierarchy of increasing certainty. Facts are the world's data. Theories are structures of ideas that explain and interpret facts. Facts don't go away when scientists debate rival theories to explain them. Einstein's theory of gravitation replaced Newton's in this century, but apples didn't suspend themselves in midair, pending the outcome. And humans evolved from ape- like ancestors whether they did so by Darwin's proposed mechanism or by some other yet to be discovered."
-Stephen Jay Gould (October 17, 2013 at 5:34 am)Tonus Wrote: So where is the difference, I wonder? It seems to me that a Christian is just as likely to lie his way out of a difficult situation as anyone else, blaming it on "imperfection." And your average non-believer seems no more likely to brutally beat up an old lady than your average Christian, even if he thought he might get away with it. I am thinking that for many crimes (and for many "crimes") the likelihood that one or the other will commit it is not that different. The main difference would be in the justifications afterwards. The other difference would be that, where an atheist actually has to feel bad and make amends to the person they've actually wronged, a christian just has to talk to themselves for a few minutes and, lo and behold, how very convenient, they've been forgiven by god! How can you, lowly human that has been wronged, still be mad, when god himself has forgiven? How do we know god has forgiven them? Why, they said so, of course! It's a personal relationship, motherfuckers. 
"YOU take the hard look in the mirror. You are everything that is wrong with this world. The only thing important to you, is you." - ronedee
Want to see more of my writing? Check out my (safe for work!) site, Unprotected Sects!  (October 16, 2013 at 8:23 pm)ronedee Wrote: ...for an Atheist that is? Yes there's a point to living a moral life as an atheist. Point 1. I feel good when I help people out it's a general human trait to feel good helping others. Point 2. It isn't just god you have to answer to when not living a moral life sometimes you have to answer to the police or someone who's stronger than you punching you in the face. Although in some ways you might be right, it's pretty depressing but the two people who I do trust the most probably in my life who I've met are 2 religious muslims who I work with. It's pretty depressing because the two nicest, trustworthy people I've met in my life were probably only nice because god was right behind them effectively saying "DO ANYTHING WRONG AND I'll BURN YOUR SOUL FOREVER" But then saying that probably the most sly backstabbing racist bullying guy in work was probably also a muslim so this is no indicator of anything, most people believe god is forgiving anyway so they won't have to answer for a lot of things. I'd also say religion is responsible for many immoral things too, homophobia, terrorism, the killing of women because of a belief in witches and so on. And as for my own moral compass I just tend to do what I think is right and basic gut instinct Are you ready for the fire? We are firemen. WE ARE FIREMEN! The heat doesn’t bother us. We live in the heat. We train in the heat. It tells us that we’re ready, we’re at home, we’re where we’re supposed to be. Flames don’t intimidate us. What do we do? We control the flame. We control them. We move the flames where we want to. And then we extinguish them. Impersonation is treason. |
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