Hell and imperfections in the universe

[Bad Wolf]

We can establish you can't cease to exist if you already exist,

Thats why I said: my consciousness. The molecules that make me up won't cease to exist, but my mind will.

You can have eternal life with God and in love or eternal life without God and without his love, that's essentially the choice you have. It's a fair enough choice as you're not being forced into anything you don't want.

I don't want to go to hell. But if i don't do what god wants, I will end up there because of the system he created. If i don't want to go there but i have no choice in the matter, that means I am being forced into something i don't want.

If he created us the way you're suggesting we wouldn't be humans but angels, they don't necessarily get to have their own freedom of will they carry out Gods will. But as humans we have the free choice and are able to exist in an interactive two way relationship with God.

Just saying, 'we have free will' is not an answer. I'm asking, how a god that loves everyone and understands what it is like to suffer, can just sit around and watch as billions of people suffer and die unjustly. Saying that we have free will is not an answer.

More reassurance than you would give them.

False hope. Lies. That is what you give them. I would give them reality. The truth is always better. Instead of reassurance i would give them aid, food, water, shelter. This all comes down to you not caring what you believe as long as you can feel good about it.

He has done something about it.

Its not enough then.

Because of the way we were made we evolved naturally, there are going to be genetic defects and mutations. People are going to suffer and die as we all will eventually that's what being a human is all about it can't be avoided.

Why not? An all powerful god can't make it so that we don't get genetic defects and mutations? And don't fucking mention angels again, i don't like listening to bullshit

No it doesn't make it ok. Atheists seem to think it is ok.

Wow, that is a very big sweeping statement. You care to explain yourself? You got any evidence? Or are you pulling shit out your ass?

You don't reject the Christian God because you don't understand what the Christian God is or why people would place their faith in him.

I understand better than any believer what the Christian god is. Read the fucking bible without those rose colored spectacles and you may get to know him properly.
Why do you speak about faith like it is a virtue. I think we may have different definitions of faith but my one is: believing in something despite lack of evidence and/or evidence to the contrary. Faith is a cop out. Faith is gullibility

[Sword of Christ]

Thats why I said: my consciousness. The molecules that make me up won't cease to exist, but my mind will.

You do know the atoms you're currently made from haven't always and won't always exist as part of your physical body? You know that atoms you're made from currently won't be the same atoms your body will be made from in 10 years time?

I'll let you into a secret, you exist as consciousness without consciousness you do not exist but as a consciousness being you do exist. This isn't or anything supernatural or something to take on faith this is 100% pure fact of reason. You're not going to exist as "non-sentient molecules" so forget all about that it's just nonsensical.

I don't want to go to hell. But if i don't do what god wants, I will end up there because of the system he created.

God wants to have a loving relationship with you. Same as like say your biological father would want that.

If i don't want to go there but i have no choice in the matter, that means I am being forced into something i don't want.

You don't have to love your father but it's better for you if you did. What do you have against love and relationships?

Just saying, 'we have free will' is not an answer. I'm asking, how a god that loves everyone and understands what it is like to suffer, can just sit around and watch as billions of people suffer and die unjustly.

He doesn't sit around doing nothing he is in constant relationship with us and shares in the suffering of life with us. He did this physically in the person of Christ so I don't know what else you want him to do. Remove human freedom of will to do evil or sin? To force people into obeying him? To deny us the opportunity of a physical life in his creation?

Saying that we have free will is not an answer.

So you would like to be a kind of robot controlled by God? Though I suppose you like the idea of being a robot controlled by chemical reactions.

False hope.

False certainty.

Lies.

Truth.

That is what you give them.

I'm not giving anyone anything. I can explain how you are mistaken though. I don't mean mistaken from my own point of view either but factually mistaken on a number of points. If you don't want to believe in God that's fine but at least understand it.

I would give them reality.

Your opinion of reality. You're entitled to your opinion of course but you don't get to brand it as reality when you yourself do not know.

The truth is always better.

The truth of the Lord is better.

Instead of reassurance i would give them aid, food, water, shelter.

That's the Holy Spirit motivating you there. I don't think you're really separated from God he still works through you he's right there in your heart.

This all comes down to you not caring what you believe as long as you can feel good about it.

You can't care about what you believe and feel good about what you know as the truth?

Its not enough then.

He can't remove human sin he only saves you from it's consequences. If he forced people to be sinless he would remove their freewill. We also currently have frail mortal physical bodies but that's just the fact of the situation as it is and there is nothing you can do about it. It's better to this as a gift and an opportunity to serve God rather than serving yourself. You serve God by serving others and caring for his creation.

Why not? An all powerful god can't make it so that we don't get genetic defects and mutations? And don't fucking mention angels again, i don't like listening to bullshit

Something like Adam and Eve in the Garden of Eden, minus the opportunity to disobey him and come to the understanding of good and evil then. It's better to see life as an opportunity to do good or as a gift harsh though it can be.

Wow, that is a very big sweeping statement. You care to explain yourself? You got any evidence? Or are you pulling shit out your ass?

Evidence for what? We can only have scientific evidence for what we can physically study the evidence for God is through revelation and spiritual experience.

I understand better than any believer what the Christian god is. Read the fucking bible without those rose colored spectacles and you may get to know him properly.

What makes you think I haven't read " the fucking bible"? I read practically it every night as I practice Lectio Divina.

Why do you speak about faith like it is a virtue.

Why do you speak about faith as an evil?

I think we may have different definitions of faith but my one is: believing in something despite lack of evidence and/or evidence to the contrary. Faith is a cop out. Faith is gullibility

My definition of faith is a trust in something or someone you consider to be trustworthy. I'm sure you have plenty of faith/trust in your own life.

[Bad Wolf]

Seriously, i'm gunna stop replying to you if you don't answer my questions. All you are doing is dancing around the question, spouting lots of bullshit in the hope that i won't notice that you didn't actually answer anything.

Why would a god that loves everyone and understands what it is like to suffer, do nothing. Lets be specific here. I want you to answer this question very specifically ok? Why does he allow butterfly children to exist? Why is that a thing? Why is there a genetic disease where your skin sloughs off of your bones? How can a god that loves everyone, allow this kind of suffering?

And you know exactly what your sweeping statement was, answer the question, no more dodging and dancing.

[CleanShavenJesus]

Nope he has it right. God created the whole situation in the first place.

He gave us freewill and so we have the capacity of sin and evil, these things tear us away from God and heaven. Heaven is not just a place you go when you die you can see it a state of being, something you can realize here on Earth right now as Jesus himself taught. You can also have a read of Genesis providing you take the story as a parable for the human condition and our relationship to our creator. Yes it's a myth but a myth with true meaning.

Who's fault is it if you refuse to pay protection money to the godfather and his thugs break your legs?

You don't have the right idea as a creature of God made in his image God loves you and saves you from sin, death and hell and brings you into eternal life. He can't force you into it of course, but as C.S Lewis said death isn't necessarily the cut-off point for accepting it. Now the God of Islam perhaps would be closer to the godfather analogy, you reject him the way you're doing and he will throw you into a literal hell fire that will burn off all your flesh and then regenerate it all and burn it off again. The Christian God loves everyone and the Islamic God and other versions of God only love certain people. A bit of William Lane Craig for you here.

With your line of reasoning it would be the persons fault for not paying. Can you not see how ridiculous that is?

It would be if that's how it was meant to work. But you got it all wrong.

Remember that time God gave people free will, didn't like what they were doing with their free will, and then proceeded to kill them all with a flood?

Good times.

[themonkeyman]

God is perfectly just, and yet he sentences the imperfect humans he created to infinite suffering in hell for finite sins. A limited offense does not warrant unlimited punishment. God's sentencing of the imperfect humans to an eternity in hell for a mere mortal lifetime of sin is infinitely more unjust than this punishment. A perfectly just God who sentences his imperfect creation to infinite punishment for finite sins is impossible as the properties of a cubic sphere or invisible pink unicorn.

Any true loving being would never condemn his own children to everlasting torment especially for something menial as "faith" with so little evidence he is showing to you and some are brought up in different religions, some have even heard of it, if we are to believe the Christians these people will be an a lake of fire for eternity!! So how is it fair to put them into a "lake of fire, and brimstone" for the rest of eternity!! No just God would judge a man by his believe rather than this actions. This is why the Christian God is not fit for worship.

If something is perfect, nothing imperfect can come from it. Someone once said that bad fruit cannot come from a good tree, and yet this "perfect" God created a "perfect" universe which was rendered imperfect by the "perfect" humans. The ultimate source of imperfection is God. What is perfect cannot become imperfect, so humans must have been created imperfect. What is perfect cannot create anything imperfect, so God must be imperfect to have created these imperfect humans. A perfect God who creates imperfect humans is impossible.

Source: www.evilbible.com

I’m going to reply on this because some arguments sound like parroting and not actually a decent argument. The one that pisses me off is ‘Eternal Punishment for a Finite Sin’
Ok seriously who said our sin was Finite? The bible said that our sins carry on in the spiritual world so how can we say that our sin is finate.
Technically according to our understanding of the Universe it is Finite however to a spirtualists belief and biblical belief that is actually eternal sin.
Again the bible never says that God is perfect in a Literal Sense common Genesis and the fall 2 chapters in proves this without a doubt that got Cannot be Pefect.
The fact that he would condemn his children to torment is one that I do have a beef about. Considering not even I would condemn the worst offender to an eternity of suffering considering if I was bigger than him.
I have a noisy neighbour down stairs and as much as I want to slash her throat – I would never condemn her to eternity in hell.
Again how do we know that God and hell are not perfect. It makes logical sense that inorder for a God to be perfect that everything has to be perfect – E.g. both Good and Bad. So God technically is Truly evil as well as Truly good depending on which side you are on. The bible makes it clear God is very black and white.
Perhaps a real argument would be – Why did God create us – with an opportunity to goto hell which is the only alternative to unbelief!

[Sword of Christ]

Seriously, i'm gunna stop replying to you if you don't answer my questions.

I've given you all the official orthodox Christian position of the problem of evil and human suffering. There is the "alternative" view of Christs salvation and Gods creation if you find anything insightful here.

http://gnosis.org/welcome.html

But you ain't seen this. *taps nose*

Why would a god that loves everyone and understands what it is like to suffer, do nothing.

He's done his part but we still have to do our part if it's his salvation/grace we want to receive. He can't force permanent physical changes in the creation or rob people of the freewill he gave them in the first place.

Lets be specific here. I want you to answer this question very specifically ok? Why does he allow butterfly children to exist?

You can't just completely rewrite someones genetic structure, you would kill them if you could and tried. Yes there are healing miracles through God but no-one is going to a cure someones genetic defects they had from birth, and no amputees either I guess though Jesus did reattach a severed ear. I hope this answers the question.

Why is that a thing? Why is there a genetic disease where your skin sloughs off of your bones?

Do you understand what a genetic mutation is and why it happens? You have biological organisms, you have a genetic code, you have things that can potentially go wrong with that code. That's how it is you can't do anything about and no it isn't pleasant. It will be far more unpleasant for everyone concerned if God or the higher power or immortality doesn't exist as you like to claim. Don't make me post this here shite.

How can a god that loves everyone, allow this kind of suffering?

Because living beings suffer and die that's part of life, there are good aspects of life and humanity as well. Jesus suffered and was put to death as well we're all in this together and God is right here with us. What do you have against this?

And you know exactly what your sweeping statement was, answer the question, no more dodging and dancing.

You'll have quote specifically what I said.

[Beta Ray Bill]

Having someone, something to believe in is endearing. Thinking that there is an afterlife is very appealing. But the problem is there is no fact for these things, no proof. I would rather experience life for what it truly is, than what I wished it was.

If we're to live trillions of years in heaven or hell, what is the point of 70 years of life on Earth? It seems kind of pointless, doesn't it? Shouldn't we be judged over how we act over the next 1,000,000,000,000 years than the next 10?

And if God can create a perfect world (heaven), what's the point of creating a flawed, corrupt place like Earth? Just so he can briefly judge us, then reward/punish us for the rest of eternity?

it's all so, so silly. Faith is not the truth, it's just a way to help you not fear death. But it takes away from your freedoms and understanding of the world, so it just isn't right. Don't fear death, because it's inevitable. Just make the best of the short time that you have in this incredible universe.

[Bad Wolf]

I'm out, troll

[Sword of Christ]

Having someone, something to believe in is endearing. Thinking that there is an afterlife is very appealing.

It would be a continuation of the same life we have now minus the current physical body. We go through a number of different physical bodies in one lifetime anyway even if they look very similar.

But the problem is there is no fact for these things, no proof.

You don't particularly need proof but there is testimonial evidence of the continuance of a conscious state during death see NDEs. I'm not saying this is cast iron proof no-one has anything like that, if there was there would be no need for faith we would just know. There is belief and there is knowledge two different things.

I would rather experience life for what it truly is, than what I wished it was.

If you're "wishing" then you're not really believing to begin with.

If we're to live trillions of years in heaven or hell, what is the point of 70 years of life on Earth?

Here we go.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Divinization_(Christian)

It seems kind of pointless, doesn't it?

It would be vastly more pointless if there isn't a God we're here for no purpose and we just die I would think really.

Shouldn't we be judged over how we act over the next 1,000,000,000,000 years than the next 10?

The opportunity to serve God and attain your relationship/divinity with him in the service of your fellow man and the creation is right here and now. Don't worry about what you'll be doing in a million years.

And if God can create a perfect world (heaven), what's the point of creating a flawed, corrupt place like Earth?

See above. Though it isn't flawed it's 100% perfectly engineered to generate living beings. Living beings are subject to physical suffering and death but that's an unavoidable consequence of the way God has decided that for now we have to be. You can say it's our fall through sin or whatever.

Just so he can briefly judge us, then reward/punish us for the rest of eternity?

The deal is you repent your sin and through Christs grace all your sins are then entirely forgiven. But I'm sure you like the idea of judgment and justice if you like law courts, justice systems and prisons.

it's all so, so silly. Faith is not the truth, it's just a way to help you not fear death.

There wouldn't be anything to fear if you're right seeing as literally nothing would happen to you. It's more to have a meaning and a purpose within a greater context as part of a community of believers in this life. Of course this life will never "come to an end" it will just go through transition.

But it takes away from your freedoms and understanding of the world

It gives you the freedom to know God and enhances your understanding of the world as Gods creation.

, so it just isn't right. Don't fear death, because it's inevitable. Just make the best of the short time that you have in this incredible universe.

You make the best of what God has given you for the purpose to which he made you in the incredible universe he created.

[Dionysius]

Why would a god that loves everyone and understands what it is like to suffer, do nothing.

He's done his part but we still have to do our part if it's his salvation/grace we want to receive. He can't force permanent physical changes in the creation or rob people of the freewill he gave them in the first place.

He? Part?


Quick Recap:

Omnipotent, Supremely Intelligent entity creates humankind with free will. Then...Destroys them if they do not correctly follow the yellow brick road? The yellow brick road ,btw, is a lifetime of kneeling, neck-cramping servitude and worship. Appears pretty fuckin' pathetic. Why "create" humanity in the first place if HIS heinous (majesty) knows that some will refuse? I'm sure this question has been asked as many times as the religitards have posed the mysterious (who can know him) response.