Our server costs ~$56 per month to run. Please consider donating or becoming a Patron to help keep the site running. Help us gain new members by following us on Twitter and liking our page on Facebook!
Current time: March 29, 2024, 1:42 am

Thread Rating:
  • 0 Vote(s) - 0 Average
  • 1
  • 2
  • 3
  • 4
  • 5
What is the point of morality if you're a theist?
#1
What is the point of morality if you're a theist?
I'm sure we atheists have all heard it before: "What's the point of being good if there's no god?" And we all understand just how silly that is, along with all the attendant claims of moral relativism and secret belief in god and so on.

But the more I think about it, the less that question makes sense, and the more it says about the theist that's asking it. The standard answer to this idea that morality becomes meaningless without a god dictating it is that the person barely held back from immorality by their almighty creator is far more immoral than the person capable of being good without the threat of hell. That's a fine answer, but really, the question doesn't need one: it can be asked back to the theist quite comfortably.

What purpose does the theist think morality serves, if they're asking this? Leaving aside the question of whether or not god made it or not, is there really not a reason for it that the theist can envision? Is it their view that god just created a set of random moral laws for no reason and applied them to humanity, or is there an actual, practical reason for these things?

So, theists, help me out: is there a reason, in the physical world, why your god proposed commandments like "thou shalt not kill," or was he just doing it for funsies?

If you can think of a practical answer, that's the answer to the "good without god" question too.
"YOU take the hard look in the mirror. You are everything that is wrong with this world. The only thing important to you, is you." - ronedee

Want to see more of my writing? Check out my (safe for work!) site, Unprotected Sects!
Reply
#2
RE: What is the point of morality if you're a theist?
D'uh!

It's all about god(s)'s nature, silly.

Their god thinks it's a bad idea to kill, that's why he...

no...

hang on!

Thinking
The PURPOSE of life is to replicate our DNA ................. (from Darwin)
The MEANING of life is the experience of living ... (from Frank Herbert)
The VALUE of life is the legacy we leave behind ..... (from observation)
Reply
#3
RE: What is the point of morality if you're a theist?
When I hear the "what's the point of doing good" question from a theist, what I hear them actually saying is "if I didn't have a god watching over me commanding me to do so, I would be out raping and murdering." It's an admittance that the only thing holding them back from being a complete sociopath is the retribution they believe they would receive for being so, and that is acting out of pure self-interest. The atheist that does good for the sake of doing good can be considered more moral than the theist that does it simply because of the whims of their deity.
Even if the open windows of science at first make us shiver after the cozy indoor warmth of traditional humanizing myths, in the end the fresh air brings vigor, and the great spaces have a splendor of their own - Bertrand Russell
Reply
#4
RE: What is the point of morality if you're a theist?
(October 20, 2013 at 8:13 am)Faith No More Wrote: When I hear the "what's the point of doing good" question from a theist, what I hear them actually saying is "if I didn't have a god watching over me commanding me to do so, I would be out raping and murdering." It's an admittance that the only thing holding them back from being a complete sociopath is the retribution they believe they would receive for being so, and that is acting out of pure self-interest. The atheist that does good for the sake of doing good can be considered more moral than the theist that does it simply because of the whims of their deity.

That's partly why I created the thread: you're absolutely right that that's how it comes across at first blush, but when confronted with it, miracle of miracles, the theist is suddenly able to come up with plenty of reasons sans god for their moral behavior. Because morality does correspond with reasonable behavior within context, for the most part.

The type of theist who would ask that question generally relies upon a lack of self reflection to maintain their position, because just a cursory glance at religion shows that it rarely has solutions for the problems it highlights in secular morality. Their god must have reasons for its pronouncements, and since there's no necessity for god, it doesn't need anything it can't create, there's no reason for god to do anything, beyond the limitations of the physical world. Rules and strictures don't make sense in a realm where anything is possible, after all.

There's this great Discworld book, Monstrous Regiment, that has the other kind of god in it, the kind that makes pronouncements based on nothing at all, prohibiting all sorts of things based only on his whims. That god was characterized as fucking insane.

I submit there's a reason for that.
"YOU take the hard look in the mirror. You are everything that is wrong with this world. The only thing important to you, is you." - ronedee

Want to see more of my writing? Check out my (safe for work!) site, Unprotected Sects!
Reply
#5
RE: What is the point of morality if you're a theist?
(October 20, 2013 at 9:04 am)Esquilax Wrote: There's this great Discworld book, Monstrous Regiment, that has the other kind of god in it, the kind that makes pronouncements based on nothing at all, prohibiting all sorts of things based only on his whims. That god was characterized as fucking insane.

I submit there's a reason for that.


Ah yes the god Nuggan.

I love that book. I shall have to dig it out after I've finished the Game of thrones books.



You can fix ignorance, you can't fix stupid.

Tinkety Tonk and down with the Nazis.




 








Reply
#6
RE: What is the point of morality if you're a theist?
(October 20, 2013 at 8:13 am)Faith No More Wrote: When I hear the "what's the point of doing good" question from a theist, what I hear them actually saying is "if I didn't have a god watching over me commanding me to do so, I would be out raping and murdering." It's an admittance that the only thing holding them back from being a complete sociopath is the retribution they believe they would receive for being so, and that is acting out of pure self-interest. The atheist that does good for the sake of doing good can be considered more moral than the theist that does it simply because of the whims of their deity.

But does it really have to stop them? They just have to ask for forgiveness and they are good with the dictator sky daddy....so really they can do whatever they want if they want to.
Reply
#7
RE: What is the point of morality if you're a theist?
Magic man morality is terrible anyway:

Thou shalt not kill.

... Except when I tell you to kill every last man woman and infant in my name.

Thou shalt not steal.

... Except when I think property should be yours, so go take it from them.

Love and brotherhood for others.

... Except when they aren't straight or of another faith.

There's so many exceptions to their golden rules.
Reply
#8
RE: What is the point of morality if you're a theist?
It has always struck me that moral/ethical actions have more value if there is no punishment or reward involved - 'virtue for virtue's sake', so to speak.

Suppose I see a child drowning in a pond. I have the ability to save the child, but I stand there doing nothing. Then, someone offers me $1000 to rescue the child, so I do. In another scenario, the someone holds a loaded gun to my head and promises to kill me if I don't save the child. In either case, it seems clear that an incentivized or compelled action has less moral value than an action undertaken for its own sake.

Boru
‘But it does me no injury for my neighbour to say there are twenty gods or no gods. It neither picks my pocket nor breaks my leg.’ - Thomas Jefferson
Reply
#9
RE: What is the point of morality if you're a theist?
(October 20, 2013 at 12:14 pm)BrianSoddingBoru4 Wrote: It has always struck me that moral/ethical actions have more value if there is no punishment or reward involved - 'virtue for virtue's sake', so to speak.
...
Boru

Kinda.

But there is a reward in saving the child.
The same reward you get for returning a lost wallet or for picking up some litter or anything that gives you that warm fuzzy feeling of being a member of a social group.

A chemical pat on the brain for not being a socio/psychopath.

Smile
The PURPOSE of life is to replicate our DNA ................. (from Darwin)
The MEANING of life is the experience of living ... (from Frank Herbert)
The VALUE of life is the legacy we leave behind ..... (from observation)
Reply
#10
RE: What is the point of morality if you're a theist?
(October 20, 2013 at 12:22 pm)DLJ Wrote:
(October 20, 2013 at 12:14 pm)BrianSoddingBoru4 Wrote: It has always struck me that moral/ethical actions have more value if there is no punishment or reward involved - 'virtue for virtue's sake', so to speak.
...
Boru

Kinda.

But there is a reward in saving the child.
The same reward you get for returning a lost wallet or for picking up some litter or anything that gives you that warm fuzzy feeling of being a member of a social group.

A chemical pat on the brain for not being a socio/psychopath.

Smile

Chemical brain pats are fantastic.
Reply



Possibly Related Threads...
Thread Author Replies Views Last Post
  what is the point? Drich 123 7247 September 19, 2020 at 11:04 am
Last Post: downbeatplumb
  Bibe Study 2: Questionable Morality Rhondazvous 30 2696 May 27, 2019 at 12:23 pm
Last Post: Vicki Q
  Christian morality delusions tackattack 87 8828 November 27, 2018 at 8:09 am
Last Post: The Grand Nudger
  Theist ➤ Why ☠ Atheism is Evil Compared to ✠ Christianity The Joker 177 26313 December 3, 2016 at 11:24 pm
Last Post: Amarok
  pop morality Drich 862 138121 April 9, 2016 at 12:54 pm
Last Post: Wyrd of Gawd
  Question to Theists About the Source of Morality GrandizerII 33 7561 January 8, 2016 at 7:39 pm
Last Post: Godscreated
  A theist dilemma ApeNotKillApe 34 8528 November 27, 2015 at 12:20 pm
Last Post: Drich
  Serious moral question for theist. dyresand 30 7301 September 1, 2015 at 10:13 am
Last Post: Crossless2.0
  C.S. Lewis and the Argument From Morality Jenny A 15 6169 August 3, 2015 at 4:03 pm
Last Post: Jenny A
  The questionable morality of Christianity (and Islam, for that matter) rado84 35 7459 July 21, 2015 at 9:01 am
Last Post: robvalue



Users browsing this thread: 1 Guest(s)