I see no way this could ever backfire!

[Anomalocaris]

Do you even have a method of dialling down on your smugness?

I think his affectation of smugness is his only remaining defence mechanism against the realization of his own ignorance, hollowness, and gullibility, which if allowed to occur would crush his soul.

[themonkeyman]

@Drich,

My Reply: http://atheistforums.org/thread-21987.html

[Faith No More]

Again the history of civilzation says otherwise. like it or not the worship or right to worship a given deity has spawned wars, revolutions and established countries... hmm If only there were some large nation/example in the west was established/embolden to through off their oppressors chains to worship the way they wanted too, so as to prove my point.

Oh, Drich, this is why people laugh at you. You're comparing a situation in which people were rich enough to sail halfway across the world and start a new life to avoid persecution with the poverty and oppression of North Korea.

I'm starting to think you should just have your foot surgically attached to your mouth to save you the trouble.

[Optimistic Mysanthrope]

Again the history of civilzation says otherwise. like it or not the worship or right to worship a given deity has spawned wars, revolutions and established countries... hmm If only there were some large nation/example in the west was established/embolden to through off their oppressors chains to worship the way they wanted too, so as to prove my point.

It would help your case somewhat, wouldn't it? If you manage to come up with a suitable example, let me know. I know which one you're thinking of, but I assure you it doesn't meet the criteria

[Drich]

Patriotism and love of freedom does not trump the knowledge of which side of your bread is buttered on. Soldiers in North Korea is amongst the most privileged classes besides high officialdom. Soldiers in a privileged position in a autocrasy don't tend to throw in with the revolutionaries except:


1. Their country have been heavily defeated in a war which their autocrat is not smart enough to end, so the soldiers revoluted to avoid becoming cannon fodder to a clearly lost cause

2. They were ordered to do so by their generals in a coup disguised as a revolution.

3. The revolutionaries have already come close to winning and the soldiers can see which way the wind is blowing.

To count on a previleged military to become a prime mover in a revolution to end the source of their privilege is folly.

The most likely way by which the Kim regime would end would be through a military coup. The leader of the coup is unlikely to be a liberal democrat at heart. What would most likely happen is North Korea would transition from pseudo-theocratic Kimsian hell to the purgatory of a military junta led banana republic, something like Berma before the recent half hearted thaw.

I think your missing the bigger picture. there a 20+ million people who live there. http://www.google.com/search?sourceid=na...ndYoq9Nta8


Without a doubt they have a strong army, and even if it repersented 25% of the total population 4 million soldiers would be a very formiable force for the west to have to deal with.

Even so that number pales in compareson to having a western coliotion force having to deal with another 20 million people. Right now the entire population at a moments notice is ready willing and able to martyr themselves for their 'god.' Just like the Japanese did in WWII Just like they did in the korean war.

It is one thing to have to fight a standing army, it is quite abit more to have to fight an entire nation's population, at the end of WWII we dropped 2 atom bombs to keep from having to deal with the citizen soldiers of Japan. We stale-mated with North Korea because we could not beat them and their chineese 'comrads' the first time around. They had 60 years to beef themselves back up, what makes you think we will be able to walk over them the second time around?

Or is it your belief that someone isn't going to have to do something about these guys sooner rather than later?

With that in mind. If we can get the people of North Korea to see their current 'god' as anything but then maybe so many of them will not be willing to die for him. This is where the bibles come in. With an absolute standard in which to measure a 'deity' the Kims all fall far short.

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Drich I don't understand why you think him can't use the bible to give his regime devine mandate. There are have dozens of fake messiahs in privileged nations with free access to a bible. Also what's to stop him from claiming this as anti patriotic material and using it as a pretext

If everyone has a bible, then it is quite easy to see any mandate given by mr.kim to be evidence that he is a false 'god.'

I know you guys believe that anyone can use the bible to say anything, and they can to a degree if the people listening to him want to hear it. But, if the believer's goal is to know the God of the bible and worship Him then it becomes far too easy to see the fakers.

[Lemonvariable72]

Drich I don't understand why you think him can't use the bible to give his regime devine mandate. There are have dozens of fake messiahs in privileged nations with free access to a bible. Also what's to stop him from claiming this as anti patriotic material and using it as a pretext

If everyone has a bible, then it is quite easy to see any mandate given by mr.kim to be evidence that he is a false 'god.'

I know you guys believe that anyone can use the bible to say anything, and they can to a degree if the people listening to him want to hear it. But, if the believer's goal is to know the God of the bible and worship Him then it becomes far too easy to see the fakers.

That is simply not true. if it was, there would be no pope. As well forgive me for my late alliteration, but kim sung un doesn't to say he is god but only say that his rule is of divine mandate.
As it is for biblical clarity, even the few of you theists that regularly grace this site can't even agree on important details, such as the nature of hell (I already know your stance drippy)

[Doubting Thomas]

We stale-mated with North Korea because we could not beat them and their chineese 'comrads' the first time around. They had 60 years to beef themselves back up, what makes you think we will be able to walk over them the second time around?

Our weapon technology has progressed far more vastly in the past 60 years than theirs has. Not only that, we have far better training. And I'm not so sure how loyal all the troops really are to Kim Il Sung, but I'm sure most of them prefer not to die rather than sacrifice themselves for Dear Leader. This one's a toss up though, since I'm sure they receive daily brainwashing. You'd think they'd realize how crappy their country really is, but since all their information is controlled they have nothing to compare it to. They probably think that life in other countries is just like that in NK, if not worse.

[Optimistic Mysanthrope]

It is one thing to have to fight a standing army, it is quite abit more to have to fight an entire nation's population, at the end of WWII we dropped 2 atom bombs to keep from having to deal with the citizen soldiers of Japan. We stale-mated with North Korea because we could not beat them and their chineese 'comrads' the first time around. They had 60 years to beef themselves back up, what makes you think we will be able to walk over them the second time around?

The short answer is overwhelming technological superiority. It's the involvement of china that presents a threat, not north korea.

With that in mind. If we can get the people of North Korea to see their current 'god' as anything but then maybe so many of them will not be willing to die for him. This is where the bibles come in. With an absolute standard in which to measure a 'deity' the Kims all fall far short.

Yeah that's it, tell them they'll all burn in hell for worshipping a false idol. That'll work :p

What they need is access to outside information sources.

If everyone has a bible, then it is quite easy to see any mandate given by mr.kim to be evidence that he is a false 'god.'

Only if they believe the bible. Unrestricted internet access would do the job a lot better.

I know you guys believe that anyone can use the bible to say anything, and they can to a degree if the people listening to him want to hear it. But, if the believer's goal is to know the God of the bible and worship Him then it becomes far too easy to see the fakers.

Really? So how come there is so much dissent over that very issue?

The church founders didn't have a fucking clue either. That's why they had to meet up and decide it for themselves. They didn't get direct from scripture. They didn't get it from divine revelation. They sat down and decided that jesus was god. The holy trinity didn't even exist until they pulled it out of their collective arses.

Even if you truly think they do need the bible, surely you must see that there are other, more important things they need first?

[Drich]

You can think whatever you want, but until you provide evidence, as always, your opinions are moot.

North Korean Air space is restricted to comerical flights, and communist military flights. No low level flights (under 10K ft.) I doubt either one are droping bibles above 10K feet.

Yeah, begin that way. But I guarantee you that wasn't all that happened, and it's funny you completely ignore every other stage of the process. Besides, I was asking about a political change from an already oppressive regime, and you gave me something else entirely.

I did not say this is all we need do, but if we are going to win hearts and minds we need to start somewhere. This is a good place to start.

And the best way to do that is to show them another false god. Got it.

finally!

Do you even have a method of dialling down on your smugness?

I not being smug. Just relaying what they think about how we live our lives.

And yet you seem to think they'll do it to be like their hated enemies, the Americans. Yep, seems totally logical.

They won't do it for America. They have been taught from birth to Serve God. They just have a messed up understanding of Who God is. If we can help take the need to serve God away from Kim and place that devotion where it needs to be, then we will not have to look down the barrels of 20 million N/K rifles when we have to go in and knock some sense into their current 'god'

Who said anything about english bibles?

Doubting Thomas around page 2

I'm saying that these people are bombarded with propaganda and paranoia day in and day out, told to distrust the outside world, told to hate anything forbidden, including christianity. And yet you think that a bible, entirely without context, and with an attached missive purporting to be from a literal traitor to their nation, is going to be received with an open mind. Why do you think that?

Because above all they are told, bred, and forced to worship God. They have a total devotion to God, they just don't know who He really is. If we can introduce them to the God of the bible then it will not be long for those who truly look to worship God to find Him.

Tell you what: you're a brainwashed drone, Drich, why don't you tell us your experience? If I were to throw a Koran at your head, would you pick it up, read it and convert, or would your years of indoctrination cause you to unthinkingly dismiss it?

It didn't take because it was all about locking one down to service and the method of worship that somehow pleased their god. there was no relationship, no contact with God (unless you are a phophet) just devotion to a method of worship which in of itself becomes it's own reward because of the status one gets from his peers. Being up held for your devoutness to a religion, is not giving yourself to God. It is using 'god' to make yourself great in the eyes of your peers. This is not God worship. This is worship of a given methodology/Legalism. This is the uninspired 'gentile' version of judaism.

Only when they're warranted, Drich. Only when they're warranted.

Fonzy said as he clears the first ramp.

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Again the history of civilzation says otherwise. like it or not the worship or right to worship a given deity has spawned wars, revolutions and established countries... hmm If only there were some large nation/example in the west was established/embolden to through off their oppressors chains to worship the way they wanted too, so as to prove my point.

Oh, Drich, this is why people laugh at you. You're comparing a situation in which people were rich enough to sail halfway across the world and start a new life to avoid persecution with the poverty and oppression of North Korea.

I'm starting to think you should just have your foot surgically attached to your mouth to save you the trouble.

"rich enough."

You do know that No 'rich people' settled in America right? At least not at first. They would have no reason to leave. No, the only people who came here were prisioners (forced laborers) and the 'worthy poor.' They were sent by the rich in most cases. The other group looking to settle are those who seek religious freedom, and freedom from the state.

Again do some research before you try and call me out. Don't believe your own hype that Christians are all stupid and are always wrong. I work at this a whole hellva lot harder than most of you do. i have to be square with scripture and all of my historical/social points. I at one point or another verify everything i speak on. The only time I get caught with my foot in my mouth is when i can not find my orginal source, that is why I have since consolidated to just three primary sources.

Not that I haven't made mistakes in the past or i won't make them in the future, just know that unless you have a verifiable source on something factual (especially history related) your probably wrong, just like you are here!
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Colonial_hi...ted_States

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Again the history of civilzation says otherwise. like it or not the worship or right to worship a given deity has spawned wars, revolutions and established countries... hmm If only there were some large nation/example in the west was established/embolden to through off their oppressors chains to worship the way they wanted too, so as to prove my point.

It would help your case somewhat, wouldn't it? If you manage to come up with a suitable example, let me know. I know which one you're thinking of, but I assure you it doesn't meet the criteria

Then please explain how it does not meet 'the criteria.'

[Anomalocaris]

The short answer is overwhelming technological superiority. It's the involvement of china that presents a threat, not north korea.

That's the crux of it. China sees it as vital to its own security to ensure any regime in North Korea is anti-west, anti-south korea, and militarily inclined. China will not stop short of military intervention or war to keep North Korea this way.

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Don't believe your own hype that Christians are all stupid and are always wrong. I work at this a whole hellva lot harder than most of you do. i have to be square with scripture and all of my historical/social points. I at one point or another verify everything i speak on. The only time I get caught with my foot in my mouth is when i can not find my orginal source, that is why I have since consolidated to just three primary sources.

Sounds like even Drich can get sore about geing called the idiot he is. His three primary sources are undoubtedly 1) bullshit, 2) the bible, which is bullshit, and 3) his wishthinking, which again is bullshit.