The question that makes fundies hostile

[Bad Wolf]

So the bible confirms itself! Well that's all the evidence I need! Sign me up!

[Jacob(smooth)]

No, not really.
I'm no stranger to divine revelation but I'm curious to know how it works for you. Do you feel, as you read, that God tells you that what you are reading is true? Or did you he have a specific revelation that the book was reliable?

No need to shout Btw. We're just talking.

Wanted to make sure you were listening, as I read, scripture comes into focus, it becomes clear what God's will and or plan was and many other verses come to mind that support what I learn.

I get that too, but only for some bits.

Do you have a similar experience with any other religious or secular texts?

[Bad Writer]

Serious question. GC, do you think Muslims/Mormons/Hindus/anyone not Christian are delusional?

No, they are misguided.

GC

Fair enough. So it's not a problem for you to believe that the guidance you receive is justified, even if it leads some people (not specifically you, per se) to commit some pretty heinous hate crimes because of the sense of moral superiority that your religion gives them? (Hint: hate crimes, bigotry, suppression of harmless ideals and persuasions/tendencies i.e. homosexuality are all bad when it leads to degradation of humanity). If you feel justified in perpetuating any of those things because of how you feel you are guided, then I and many others like me will definitely find fault. So I guess my next question is do you feel morally superior or just morally correct, or do you feel both?

[Brian37]

No, they are misguided.

GC

Fair enough. So it's not a problem for you to believe that the guidance you receive is justified, even if it leads some people (not specifically you, per se) to commit some pretty heinous hate crimes because of the sense of moral superiority that your religion gives them? (Hint: hate crimes, bigotry, suppression of harmless ideals and persuasions/tendencies i.e. homosexuality are all bad when it leads to degradation of humanity). If you feel justified in perpetuating any of those things because of how you feel you are guided, then I and many others like me will definitely find fault. So I guess my next question is do you feel morally superior or just morally correct, or do you feel both?

Sorry, not "fair enough", that is a watered down cop out by GC.

The believer uses this as a doge to avoid accepting there IS a rightful reason they reject those claims. It allows them to avoid putting that same mirror of logic to their own claims.

If GC can live without believing in Allah or Vishnu what makes them think their own god is needed? Why wouldn't they be making the same mistake others make in not considering it is nothing more than "it feels right" and "I want to believe it is true".

[Bad Writer]

I suppose that's why I wrote my next little bit as a way to delve further into the issue at hand, but you certainly make a great point, Brian. Beating around the bush doesn't get anyone anywhere in a serious discussion, especially when treatment of other humans based on a certain system of morality is involved.

[Brian37]

I suppose that's why I wrote my next little bit as a way to delve further into the issue at hand, but you certainly make a great point, Brian. Beating around the bush doesn't get anyone anywhere in a serious discussion, especially when treatment of other humans based on a certain system of morality is involved.

I do think you do need patient deconstructionists to wade through superstitious yellow brick roads, I simply have no patience for it.

The fact is no currently believed God/god/deity, or religion was around at the beginning of our current sapient forum. Humans had other superstitions then and still managed to reproduce. If we manage as a species not to blow ourselves up or pollute ourselves into extinction, and if a meteor does not hit us, in another 50,000 years things will be different and these nuts seriously think their human concocted sky heros will be around then?

Gods are the invention of humans, nothing more. No well wishing or convoluted apology will make a fantasy real.

[Godscreated]

Wanted to make sure you were listening, as I read, scripture comes into focus, it becomes clear what God's will and or plan was and many other verses come to mind that support what I learn.

I get that too, but only for some bits.

Do you have a similar experience with any other religious or secular texts?

Only through the studying of God's word.

GC

[Godscreated]

No, they are misguided.

GC

Fair enough. So it's not a problem for you to believe that the guidance you receive is justified, even if it leads some people (not specifically you, per se) to commit some pretty heinous hate crimes because of the sense of moral superiority that your religion gives them? (Hint: hate crimes, bigotry, suppression of harmless ideals and persuasions/tendencies i.e. homosexuality are all bad when it leads to degradation of humanity). If you feel justified in perpetuating any of those things because of how you feel you are guided, then I and many others like me will definitely find fault. So I guess my next question is do you feel morally superior or just morally correct, or do you feel both?

I'm not morally superior to any one, are my morals better than some, yes. I try and live to the standards God has set for His children. It's you guys who want to say I present myself as morally superior, I believe it's because you do not understand that my beliefs are unchanging on most moral issues. I do not believe in treating people as less than what God deems them to be and as far as I can tell they are all just as important to Him as I am. As far as harmless ideas, hate crimes and ect. if they lead to degradation of man according to God then yes I in accordance with Him. Sorry if you find this unpleasant, but I have to live by what I see as truth, whether you believe as I do or not.

GC

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Fair enough. So it's not a problem for you to believe that the guidance you receive is justified, even if it leads some people (not specifically you, per se) to commit some pretty heinous hate crimes because of the sense of moral superiority that your religion gives them? (Hint: hate crimes, bigotry, suppression of harmless ideals and persuasions/tendencies i.e. homosexuality are all bad when it leads to degradation of humanity). If you feel justified in perpetuating any of those things because of how you feel you are guided, then I and many others like me will definitely find fault. So I guess my next question is do you feel morally superior or just morally correct, or do you feel both?

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Sorry, not "fair enough", that is a watered down cop out by GC.

The believer uses this as a doge to avoid accepting there IS a rightful reason they reject those claims. It allows them to avoid putting that same mirror of logic to their own claims.

If GC can live without believing in Allah or Vishnu what makes them think their own god is needed? Why wouldn't they be making the same mistake others make in not considering it is nothing more than "it feels right" and "I want to believe it is true".

I do not believe because it feels good or feels right, doing something for those reasons would be wrong. I believe because I know God is real and that what He offers is best for mankind.

GC

[Brian37]

I get that too, but only for some bits.

Do you have a similar experience with any other religious or secular texts?

Only through the studying of God's word.

GC

No, you make excuses by reading words in a man made book because you want to believe it has special powers. Pick up the Koran, read it, if it doesn't give you that same "special feeling", then maybe you need to consider that there is no special power to the book you like either.

The bible was written by unscientific people who had no clue about the nature of reality. It took over 1,000 years and 40 authors with books left out and the first canonized version was VOTED ON. Hardly comes across as the work of an all powerful God.

Seriously, if "Goddidit" meaning "poofed" the universe into existence, why would he need a man's rib to make a woman? Not that that makes any scientific sense in any case.

And if he could "poof" all this into existence why take flawed humans and 1,000 years to do something he could do himself? Hardly efficient.

The bible is a book of myth like the Koran and Torah and Talmud and Reg Vedas.

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I do not believe because it feels good or feels right, doing something for those reasons would be wrong. I believe because I know God is real and that what He offers is best for mankind.

You can't prove that and you know it so you have to believe it and make excuses to believe it in the face of reality. That is called willful ignorance.

"Offers is best for mankind"? Like what? Child molesters? Childhood cancer? Children dying from famine? Hurricanes, tornados, tsunamis, dark ages, slavery, sexism, homophobia, holocaust, 9/11?

Sounds like a deadbeat to me if he can stop those things but refuses to.

[Bad Writer]

I'm not morally superior to any one, are my morals better than some, yes. I try and live to the standards God has set for His children. It's you guys who want to say I present myself as morally superior, I believe it's because you do not understand that my beliefs are unchanging on most moral issues.

Let me help you out of this contradiction real quick. You say "I'm not morally superior to any one..." and then you turn around and say "I try and live to the standards God has set for His children." Based on the second quote, is it any wonder why we say that you believe you are morally superior? You try to obey a law that you attribute to your god, who you believe to be the supreme moral authority in the universe. Unlike some people, we can do math, and we understand that 1+1=2. We put the pieces together and, viola! we have a Christian trying to follow his god's ultimate laws, which gives him a sense of moral superiority. If you truly believe that you are NOT, as you mentioned, morally superior to others, then the question being begged is "Does that mean you believe there's a more moral law out there somewhere?" (Yes, that is what that means.)

I do not believe in treating people as less than what God deems them to be and as far as I can tell they are all just as important to Him as I am. As far as harmless ideas, hate crimes and ect. if they lead to degradation of man according to God then yes I in accordance with Him. Sorry if you find this unpleasant, but I have to live by what I see as truth, whether you believe as I do or not.

That was "suppression" of harmless ideas. Just making sure you don't misrepresent what I said, though I believe you didn't mean to. So you're admitting that such things are in accordance with god's will (hate crimes, bigotry, etc.)? That's what I got from what you just wrote, and I hope that's not what you really mean. (I'm getting the feeling that you're getting a little hazy here on the rebuttal; I don't want this to turn into an ugly shouting match like times before, you know, so I'm just being cautious.)

I do not believe because it feels good or feels right, doing something for those reasons would be wrong. I believe because I know God is real and that what He offers is best for mankind.

What he offers is for a small group of people. (That's if he's even real and offering anything in the first place.)