The question that makes fundies hostile

[Jacob(smooth)]

Actually I'm pretty sure if its about anything its about this.



"So in everything, do to others what you would have them do to you, for this sums up the Law and the Prophets"

If I was gay I would not want people being hateful or judging me. If I was a slave I'd want to be free. The "golden rule" appears in many religions and secular texts.

And that, my dear,is why you are one of the only Christ-like Christians who comes around here.

That's very kind of you, if a bit inaccurate. I'm in no way Christ like, I just respect what the bible claims he told us we should TRY to be like. Which can be broadly speaking abridged as "don't be a bell end."

[max-greece]

If gay people can't/don't exercise choice, (in the same way as bi-curious ppl do or celibate people do, or heterosexual male prisoners do, etc. etc.) then how come some gay people choose to try gay conversion therapy???

Because they didn't exercise a choice in the first place - they just don't like what it entails and want to change (usually fruitlessly).

Did you choose to be heterosexual? I didn't. Its just how I am.

The sexual orientation you are borne with - which is what we are really discussiing - is a no-choice affair.

How a person deals with their own orientation thereafter is a product of many things - mostly societal. Examples of same sex pairings exist in hundreds, if not thousands, of species - its therefore a normal biological occurrence.

[Ben Davis]

Education is not the answer to slavery.

It's certainly part of the answer. People who know how to think are able to identify possible abuses therefore more likely to oppose the mechanisms which lead to those abuses.

Society needs to have the Haves and Have nots in order for it to work. If everyone 'has,' then who will do the menial jobs only the 'have nots' normally did?

No it doesn't. That's a fallacy spread by those who have a vested interest in the continuation of free-market capitalism. If there were no controlled shortages of basic resources, as is the case right now, do you really think that society would grind to a halt? That everyone would simply stop striving and become lazy? That human innovation wouldn't redirect towards other more worthwhile goals?

Also, those who understand labour principles know that all work of value is of equal value. The social stigma of 'menial' labour is a byproduct of our social development and therefore subject to as much change as any other social principle. Technological advances also allow us to free ourselves from the repetitive tasks which often charactarise 'menial' labour thus freeing us from the historic imperatives to which you refer.

Look at what 20+ years of pushing higher education has done for this country. Everyone has a collage degree, which makes a collage degree worthless. why? because everyone has on. (Everyone 'has.') One would be luck to get a job as a 'bug man' with a collage degree now. Because the market is now flooded with worthless degrees. It's like printing money, the more you print the less value it actually has.

That's an extremely nihilistic attitude towards education. Do you not understand the social benefits of having a population composed of knowledgeable people? Just because there's a disparity between our levels of education and our social exploitation of that intellectual wealth doesn't mean we should cut the well off at the source!

The only way what you are suggesting will work is in a communist society, and even then as per China and the USSR's example we know that does not work either.

Once again, simply not true. There are a number of capitalist models in which my outline is practical and there are plenty of governments in Europe who have working methods of parts of my suggestions; I'm not basing my points on idealism, rather I'm building on evidence. Also, communism has only been tried in extremist dictatorships (a result of global tribalistic conflicts). If tried in more relaxed governmental frameworks, we might well have seen different results.

We NEED slaves inorder for the current model of society we know to work. There is no way around that. The only option we have is to pretend that we don't, and shun those who suggest otherwise. (To bury our heads in the sand.) Which means those who do work as slaves have to work for people who go completely unregulated. Which if history is any indicator, is not a good thing.

Nonsense. No-one 'needs' to be owned, as property, by another individual. Most people in most societies recognise this which is why it's illegal in most of the world. Even in terms of 'wage slavery' (the tacit 'ownership' through social constructs to which you've refered), the more successful civilisations have developed mechanisms to fight this (e.g. unionisation).

There is no context in which it's right for one person to own another as property, even if that ownership is inveigled by or delegated to socio-political frameworks.

[NoraBrimstone]

If gay people can't/don't exercise choice, (in the same way as bi-curious ppl do or celibate people do, or heterosexual male prisoners do, etc. etc.) then how come some gay people choose to try gay conversion therapy???

If they did exercise choise, gay conversion therapy wouldn't exist, would it? They could just choose not to be gay.

No, the reason some gay people "choose" to try gay conversion therapy is because society has made them believe that there is something wrong with them that needs fixing. Society has made them ashamed of who they are, and that's heartbreaking. Society should feel ashamed for allowing people (mostly young men) to feel that way, and for allowing shit like"gay conversion therapy", which has been known to cause serious harm (and even death, I believe), to exist at all.

[Lion IRC]

"Love them like I loved you"

Jesus told people to stop doing bad stuff or they would face eternal punishment.

"Make sure you take care of them and dont judge them."

Yes, they certainly need taking care of.

Federal health officials are reporting a sharp increase in unprotected sex among gay American men, a development that makes it harder to fight the AIDS epidemic.
The same trend has recently been documented among gay men in Canada, Britain, the Netherlands, France and Australia, heightening concerns among public health officials worldwide.

---

Seems that legal same sex marriage in Canada hasn't helped to improve monogamy and commitment and True Love.
Perhaps promiscuity and infidelity are things that hedonistic gay people cant choose to control EITHER.

[downbeatplumb]

IOW - people can and do exercise deliberate choices about their sexual behaviour options.

Then why don't you fuck a dude? Go on its only a choice, you wont be gay go on choose to do it to prove me wrong.

[Silver]

Perhaps promiscuity and infidelity are things that hedonistic gay people cant choose to control EITHER.

Fixed it for you.

[Lion IRC]

downbeatplumb - There is ample evidence that gay men can voluntarily have sex with women.

[Bad Wolf]

There is ample evidence that gay men voluntarily have sex with women.

Hall of shame, now!

[Godlesspanther]

Seems that legal same sex marriage in Canada hasn't helped to improve monogamy and commitment and True Love.
Perhaps promiscuity and infidelity are things that hedonistic gay people cant choose to control EITHER.

Whatever. Shall we look at the sexual behavior of fundies?

You avoided the subsequent dilemma that I brought up.

Legalized marijuana or racial segregation? Which, in your opinion, is worse? You have no bible to base your decision on. Neither is mentioned in the Bible. You have to think for yourself on this one.

Are you capable of that?