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RE: Israeli woman fined for not circumsizing her son.
November 27, 2013 at 1:28 am
I'm sure David Reimer would disagree. There's nothing they do to the infants that can't be done later in life.
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RE: Israeli woman fined for not circumsizing her son.
November 27, 2013 at 3:22 am
A lot depends on how and why it's done. But it certainly should not be mandated!
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Through passion, I gain strength.
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Through power, I gain victory.
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RE: Israeli woman fined for not circumsizing her son.
November 27, 2013 at 3:33 am
I'm glad I was cut right off the bat and don't need to worry about arranging that all myself, or having the memories of circumcision.
"For me, it is far better to grasp the Universe as it really is than to persist in delusion, however satisfying and reassuring." - Carl Sagan
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RE: Israeli woman fined for not circumsizing her son.
November 27, 2013 at 3:36 am
(This post was last modified: November 27, 2013 at 3:39 am by Tiberius.)
Circumcision is genital mutilation, and even if there are health benefits (which is debatable), it should be the child's decision, not the parent's.
I wasn't cut and I'm very glad I wasn't. There are too many horror stories out there. Not only can it be botched, it also can reduce sexual pleasure. Considering you can keep your penis clean without being circumcised, I don't see the point of it.
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RE: Israeli woman fined for not circumsizing her son.
November 27, 2013 at 4:01 am
(This post was last modified: November 27, 2013 at 4:03 am by Tiberius.)
(November 27, 2013 at 12:20 am)Kitanetos Wrote: I have stated it before, and I will state it again.
I am glad that I was circumcised. If for no other reason that aesthetics, the procedure is perfectly fine as far as I am concerned. If you are glad it was done, great. However there are people out there who are not glad it was done. Learn to put yourself in other people's shoes and think without resorting to your own experiences. Unless the procedure is absolutely necessary for a baby to have (and there are a small number of scenarios where that might be the case), it should not happen until the person decides for themselves.
(November 27, 2013 at 3:33 am)c172 Wrote: I'm glad I was cut right off the bat and don't need to worry about arranging that all myself, or having the memories of circumcision. I don't need to worry about arranging it myself and I'm not cut. It's an unnecessary procedure in the first place in most cases.
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RE: Israeli woman fined for not circumsizing her son.
November 27, 2013 at 4:08 am
(This post was last modified: November 27, 2013 at 4:19 am by Aractus.)
(November 26, 2013 at 10:16 pm)Kitanetos Wrote: There is nothing wrong with circumcision. Yep, it's certainly not "multilation".
(November 27, 2013 at 3:36 am)Tiberius Wrote: Circumcision is genital mutilation, and even if there are health benefits (which is debatable), it should be the child's decision, not the parent's. Oh Tib, you are so completely wrong. Where to start? Child's decision and not the parents??? Health benefits "debatable"??? How is medical science "debatable" - should I be going around arbitrarily telling people not to do what they doctor's say?
Quote:I wasn't cut and I'm very glad I wasn't. There are too many horror stories out there. Not only can it be botched, it also can (supposedly) reduce sexual pleasure.
FIXED that one for you off the bat.
Quote:Considering you can keep your penis clean without being circumcised, I don't see the point of it.
Um, again, you are totally wrong. It is impossible to sterilize skin - if you believe otherwise then tell me how people contract hepatitis when getting tattooed?
--edit to add--
When I posted this in 2007 on another forum, I was laughed off as a lunatic.
No one would even look at the studies I posted!
http://www.who.int/hiv/topics/malecircumcision/en/
During vaginal intercourse, men contract HIV through their foreskins. This is now well and truly established as fact. Whether they also contact HIV in smaller amounts through other parts of the penis is irrelevant, and goes to prove that circumcision is a valid protective measure for men against HIV, just as condoms are.
You can try to prove otherwise if you like Tib, but do make sure that you explain why you are arguing with what is now a WHO recommendation.
For Religion & Health see:[/b][/size] Williams & Sternthal. (2007). Spirituality, religion and health: Evidence and research directions. Med. J. Aust., 186(10), S47-S50. -LINK
The WIN/Gallup End of Year Survey 2013 found the US was perceived to be the greatest threat to world peace by a huge margin, with 24% of respondents fearful of the US followed by: 8% for Pakistan, and 6% for China. This was followed by 5% each for: Afghanistan, Iran, Israel, North Korea. -LINK
"That's disgusting. There were clean athletes out there that have had their whole careers ruined by people like Lance Armstrong who just bended thoughts to fit their circumstances. He didn't look up cheating because he wanted to stop, he wanted to justify what he was doing and to keep that continuing on." - Nicole Cooke
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RE: Israeli woman fined for not circumsizing her son.
November 27, 2013 at 4:36 am
It's a decision the child should make when they come of age, yes. It is their body, circumcision removes a part of it. Unless absolutely medically necessary (and I said there were circumstances where it is necessary), it should be left alone.
Children can be taught how to clean their penis. No, it won't be sterilised, but that is a strawman argument. A circumcised penis is not sterilised either. An uncircumcised penis can be clean enough to prevent most infections.
As for reduced sexual pleasure, I have studies too: http://www.circumstitions.com/Sexuality.html
I read yours, will you read mine?
As for your studies, thank you, you've changed my view. There is a legitimate medical benefit to circumcision. However, these benefits can also be given (and be more successful) with condoms and not sharing partners, so my point about it being an unnecessary procedure still stands. It is only necessary in certain circumstances.
The average male in America or the UK does not need to be circumcised at birth, if at all.
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RE: Israeli woman fined for not circumsizing her son.
November 27, 2013 at 4:52 am
(This post was last modified: November 27, 2013 at 4:57 am by Aractus.)
Quote:The average male in America or the UK does not need to be circumcised at birth, if at all.
Now who's making a straw man argument?
Quote:It's a decision the child should make when they come of age, yes. It is their body, circumcision removes a part of it. Unless absolutely medically necessary (and I said there were circumstances where it is necessary), it should be left alone.
Tib, parents are allowed and have every right to make decisions that other parents will necessarily disagree with, that's what makes it the right of the parents to decide. I strongly believe that it should be the rights of the parents to decide whether to immunize their children, I know of two parents who didn't and in both cases their children got measles (but lived), and I recognize the benefits to immunization - and if I had children, I would have them immunized - but at the end of the day I fundamentally believe it's for the parents to decide and no one should be disadvantaged for choosing to do one thing or the other.
Quote:Children can be taught how to clean their penis. No, it won't be sterilised, but that is a strawman argument. A circumcised penis is not sterilised either. An uncircumcised penis can be clean enough to prevent most infections.
I didn't give you a straw man argument. My argument is that infection is far more likely with a forsekin, yours was that (essentially) cleaning the forseskin will negate the risks.
Quote:As for reduced sexual pleasure, I have studies too: http://www.circumstitions.com/Sexuality.html
I read yours, will you read mine?
On a website called "circumstitions"? Oh I'm so sure they're non-biased. One look at their homepage shows their agenda is a strong as NAMBLA - what if I posted a link to NAMBLA stating that the effects of paederasty are only positive?
Quote:As for your studies, thank you, you've changed my view. There is a legitimate medical benefit to circumcision. However, these benefits can also be given (and be more successful) with condoms and not sharing partners, so my point about it being an unnecessary procedure still stands. It is only necessary in certain circumstances.
It's not the only benefit - and again, the WHO recommend it in 3rd world countries as a viable option in the fight against AIDS, why would you dismiss its benefits 'here'?
For Religion & Health see:[/b][/size] Williams & Sternthal. (2007). Spirituality, religion and health: Evidence and research directions. Med. J. Aust., 186(10), S47-S50. -LINK
The WIN/Gallup End of Year Survey 2013 found the US was perceived to be the greatest threat to world peace by a huge margin, with 24% of respondents fearful of the US followed by: 8% for Pakistan, and 6% for China. This was followed by 5% each for: Afghanistan, Iran, Israel, North Korea. -LINK
"That's disgusting. There were clean athletes out there that have had their whole careers ruined by people like Lance Armstrong who just bended thoughts to fit their circumstances. He didn't look up cheating because he wanted to stop, he wanted to justify what he was doing and to keep that continuing on." - Nicole Cooke
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RE: Israeli woman fined for not circumsizing her son.
November 27, 2013 at 4:54 am
(November 27, 2013 at 3:36 am)Tiberius Wrote: being circumcised, I don't see the point of it.
I may get a T-shirt made with this on. 
You can fix ignorance, you can't fix stupid.
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RE: Israeli woman fined for not circumsizing her son.
November 27, 2013 at 5:59 am
Hey... about those 3rd world countries... you know how you could avoid the spreading of AIDS altogether? Circumcision may help, yes... but... here's the one greatest solution: castration!
Fuck me, circumcision leads to a 60% reduction of the risk of contracting HIV!!
Well... 60% isn't that great a number, by my book. Still needs extra measures to prevent the spread of the virus... Extra measures that would have to be in place with uncircumcised people, leading to, approximately, the same level of risk of contamination... so circumcision ends up as mostly useless.
And the study does state that the procedure must be done "by well trained health professionals in properly equipped settings". 3rd world countries...
Now Israel... well... it's not AIDS that's worrying people... it's herpes
http://failedmessiah.typepad.com/failed_...n-567.html
http://972mag.com/nstt_feeditem/israeli-...sion-rite/
http://www.israelnationalnews.com/News/N...pXCUeLoCSo
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