Living with less money

[kılıç_mehmet]

Well, you're injecting more and more money into the system without nothing to back it up. Why should the value of the dollar rise?

[A Theist]

Whatever "they" would rather see, it won't ever happen. There are thousands of types of highly skilled jobs that won't make you rich but likewise won't have you living from paycheck to paycheck. Are you suggesting these jobs would just disappear?

Not at all. I didn't say what the wealthy elite could actually cause to happen but rather what they'd like to see.
and so far, they've been very successful at increasing the gap while bringing the American economy to it's knees ... only to make a profit from it.

Not at all. I didn't say what the wealthy elite could actually cause to happen but rather what they'd like to see.

I just don't see the wealthy wanting to see a dirt poor class at all. I think they would rather see a healthy consumer base. Their profits are based on consumer spending, and when the consumer stops spending, corporations go out of business. When companies cut back employees or go under, people lose their jobs.

and so far, they've been very successful at increasing the gap while bringing the American economy to it's knees

Yeah? Wait till Obamacare kicks in full swing and businesses feel the pinch. A lot more people kicked off their current health coverages and a lot more companies laying off workers.

[Tiberius]

and so far, they've been very successful at increasing the gap while bringing the American economy to it's knees ... only to make a profit from it.

Increasing the gap between the poorest and richest in society isn't being successful in the way you suggested, because most of the population lies somewhere between those two extremes. That still isn't a two class system, and never will be.

[Dragonetti]

Sorry, the exploitation of working glass is not an ACA problem. I am not sure why people want to still link healthcare to work place? That isn't freedom. Most people refuse to leave a job they hate due to healthcare. Why? Also, this is the best that can be done with the current political climate. The current system is garbage. Please propose a better option.

I have government healthcare, because I am medically retired soldier. I will fight tooth and nail to keep that benefit.

[Zazzy]

I am not sure why people want to still link healthcare to work place? That isn't freedom.

I don't understand this, either. Can someone who knows more about this comment on this peculiarity of the US?

[Raeven]

[Off-topic discussion]

Our employer-based health care system evolved in a haphazard manner after WWII, when soldiers were coming home and taking work in an economy that was going gangbusters. Employers began offering health care benefits as additional incentive to attract the best workers. And it just grew from there. It's a stupid system, based on a profit model (basically betting on whether or not someone will get ill!), is inefficient as hell and does, as Dragonetti points out, keep people in shitty jobs just for the sake of not losing their health care coverage.

As a sole proprietor of a small business, I can tell you that scarcity of health care coverage is a HUGE drag on entrepreneurship in the US. I am so glad we've finally effected a change, and despite the dubious roll-out of the website, I think we'll find it an enormous improvement over the long haul.

[/Off-topic discussion]

[pocaracas]

Speaking of healthcare in the US... a few days ago, these charts came to my attention...

Read from them what you will...

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[Crossless2.0]

I make 35-40K per year at my present job, more than enough for a single man with no responsibilities. However, when my ex-wife and I split up, I voluntarily assumed the entire burden of our debt (including medical bills, credit cards, etc.) to spare her unnecessary hardship. In addition, I continue to send my son a generous amount of support each month. What is left over barely covers my rent, utilities, insurance, gas, and food. Not having a car is not an option; I require it to perform my work.

I live in one of the poorest parts of town, in a cheap one-bedroom apartment with exactly two pieces of furniture: a bed I purchased from my boss for $100 and a chair my daughters chipped in on last Christmas so I would have a place to sit besides the floor. My extravagances, such as they are, involve the occasional pizza and a small (but absolutely necessary) store of cold beer.

I could probably just say "fuck it" and declare bankruptcy (as many family members and friends have advised), but that would adversely affect my ex-wife as well since both of our names are on the debts we accrued together during better financial times, when paying them off wasn't a concern. Besides, I have a real problem with the idea of declaring bankruptcy since my current problems are not due to catastrophic health care bills, etc. but to the unraveling of a marriage and a change of heart. I refuse to take the easy way out and so have another 2.5-3 years before I will be in the clear and able to enjoy some of the fruits of my labors.

Even then, I can't imagine living high on the hog. My needs/interests are simple and often free. I must confess though that I would love to again afford season tickets at the Philharmonic.

[CleanShavenJesus]

I live in a rock climbing campground in Southern California. To say I live anywhere is not a very accurate statement, I'm nomadic and cars don't suit my lifestyle very well.

I think you can be sad about the consumerism, I know someone who does animal testing and is constantly sad about it. Being sad is way different than actually living up to the standards you promote. That Jewelry most likely comes from suffering in Africa. Is it worth it to look good (subjectively) so that other people suffer? It's what's wrong with our society. It's why it will collapse, and it's why the environment is being destroyed.

Oh, please. Give me a break.

I grew up in a lower middle class home. I've been working for over 35 years, in various jobs, and I am in an improved economic state right now. With my savings in addition to my yearly income, I would identify myself as upper middle class now.

I don't understand the purpose of this thread. What card are you playing, CapnAwesome? The "help, I'm being attacked for being a self-righteous hippy" card? Or the "anyone making a real living is disgusting and doing life wrong, because I'm smarter and freer than you" card? If it's neither of those two, then I'm missing something. I'm not one of the "left-wingers" who personally attack you. I actually didn't read any of those exchanges anywhere. But I really have trouble grasping your purpose.

I'm not saying that your lifestyle is wrong. If you enjoy it, it can't be wrong. There's no objectively wrong lifestyle. You can be completely homeless and live on the street for all I care, if you enjoy it. However, your diction in your initial post indicates that my lifestyle, and pretty much anyone with a car's lifestyle, is wrong. Which is ridiculous. Correct me if I'm wrong.

If your purpose is truly to say that you think it's unfair to be attacked for your lifestyle, then yes you're correct. But when you present your purpose in this fashion, knocking anybody who makes an actual living and works hard in their career of choice, giving off a "I'm better than you" attitude as you are, then there's no reason you shouldn't be attacked.

You slay me with your jewelry comment. I guess we'd all better stop wearing clothes too, since the fabrics came out of some Asian sweatshop with underpaid child workers.

[JDFlood]

But where DO you live?

Everybody can consume less, yes. But most people have areas where they aren't willing to give up consumer goods. For me, it's food, alcohol, tickets, books. I don't want to do without them, and in buying these things, I support performers, writers, waiters, chefs, and local vineyards.
It is one thing to go crazy on Black Friday and kill other people to buy cheap Cabbage Patch Dolls. It's another to give up all consumer goods altogether. You seem to be presenting this as a black and white issue. It's not. I can go to a great restaurant and then to the opera (dressed to kill and wearing jewelry) and still be sad about the amount of consumerism in my country.

I live in a rock climbing campground in Southern California. To say I live anywhere is not a very accurate statement, I'm nomadic and cars don't suit my lifestyle very well.

I think you can be sad about the consumerism, I know someone who does animal testing and is constantly sad about it. Being sad is way different than actually living up to the standards you promote. That Jewelry most likely comes from suffering in Africa. Is it worth it to look good (subjectively) so that other people suffer? It's what's wrong with our society. It's why it will collapse, and it's why the environment is being destroyed.

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I guess it has to depend on you personality. As a child I alway saw myself as an intellectual, athletic, explorer, with the desire to experience some of the best things in life. I always loved astronomy, literature, music, travel, abstract thought, and comfort. I just reached my 60's, I have a large leather bound library, a world class audio system, two of the best telescopes made, travelled the world, a comfortable house and enough money to retire comfortably and not become a burden to society. Career wise I could have been much more successful and have many millions, but I tried to make decisions that allowed me to achieve my dreams and give me enough time to enjoy them. So living on less would never had cut it for me. I can respect folks that do, provided they are responsible.that they plan for retirement and health care in a responsible way, so not to become a burden on society. Dragging along the bottom rungs and not planning for retirement is just irresponsible to me. Living a small footprint and being smart and responsible I really have to respect. I couldn't do it. JD

What do you mean you couldn't do it? Of course you could, you just chose not to.

You know, I thought a lot about your comment. I could not have chosen otherwise. If I consciously had decided to take a different path, my subconscious would have said no. It would have made me feel worthless and lazy and a failure... Until I got with the program and got back to work on my goals. Most of our big decisions are controlled by our subconscious... As are much of our basic personality. I am no different. We are pack animals and different people are born with different drive and motivation, and we are pretty bound to that chemistry. But within those broad guidelines we make many choices. JD