(November 29, 2013 at 6:32 pm)CapnAwesome Wrote: I don't really understand the opposition that some of the left-wing people on these boards have against living with less money. Sometimes when I point out that Americans, almost across the boards economically, are capable of living with less than they currently have I have been viciously (and sometimes personally) attacked. The fact is that the poor in this country have a living standard that would be considered absurdly good in most countries. The fact that our 'poor' tend towards obesity should speak to the fact that everyone can live with less. I personally have lived on 3000 dollars a year for the last 4 years. If you own a car, I really can't consider you poor.

At one point in the 60's there was a large segment of liberal thought that said we should live with less, but today the reverse it true. The idea that people should live simply is out the window and everything is about money, how much money everyone has and how to get other peoples money, and how the underclasses would be happier if only they have a little bit more money. Meanwhile the western lifestyle destroys the environment, causes wars across the world, and ultimately doesn't make anyone happy. If you are unhappy with the money that you have, more is not going to make you happier. We need to switch our mentality to living with less. Eventually we will have to anyway, as the environment and economy both collapse. It's time to shift our mentality, get rid of our cars and learn to live within our means.

Edit: Just realized that it's Black Friday, please don't go out and buy a bunch of worthless shit that you don't need.

Can't say that I agree a lot with what you posted, but unlike the left-wingers on these boards I'm not going to viciously and personally attack you just because we disagree on a few things here, (and I know exactly what you're talking about). I know that you've posted some things about your lifestyle that shows you personally can live on less money and be happy and contented. You also make a good point about living within our means and that if our economy collapses some of us aren't going to be as prepared to meet that challenge in a way that you've accustomed yourself to. On the other hand, for myself, I would rather have the extra money and enjoy it while I still can. It would also be nearly impossible for me to get rid of my vehicle since my occupation demands the use of a pick-up truck. Somewhere there has to be a happy medium between the two lifestyles here.

Ideally, I can see how simplifying is a good plan, but it isn't an ideal world. I don't buy into the keeping up with the Joneses/American Dream™ side of materialism, yet living in a cave and eating berries goes too far austerity wise. The middle ground for a family happens to cost more than $3000. Skipping on a Lexus for a Kia only saves you so much.

Speaking of living in a cave, eating berries...my son is talking about going to Yale. Living with less money may be an understatement.

(November 29, 2013 at 6:54 pm)rexbeccarox Wrote: So, Capn, where are you living that rent costs you less than $3,000 a year? I'm sorry you got evicted from the van, btw. It does sound like a fun and free lifestyle, and I'm a little jealous you did that. If I didn't have the antichrist (my cat), I'd probably do something similar. Although, sometimes sacrifices have to be made and I'm hungry. Kung Pao Kitty, anyone?

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(November 29, 2013 at 6:49 pm)Zazzy Wrote: I'd love to get rid of the car- I ride my bike as often as I can. It's not feasible for us, though. If you live in a city with good, reliable public transportation, be thankful for it.

Public transport in San Diego county is sub par, to be extremely generous, if you live outside of the city limits. For years, though, I had my legs, bike, and 50cc scooter that gets 95 miles to the gallon. When I enrolled in classes downtown, I had to get a car. It's an '02 Camry that gets about 35 MPG. I prefer the bike, scooter, and legs, though

I evicted myself from the mini-van, so to speak. I really only have a few interests in life, rock climbing and sex, and van or no my girlfriend wasn't that into either of them. But even though my lifestyle might be an extreme representation of living with less (or if you go to most of the world, a not so extreme version) everybody can consume less. There is a whole society of well educated kids from good backgrounds who have embraced a minimalistic lifestyle that most people are unaware of. I don't understand how people can bitch about capitalism and consumerism (two separate things) and then buy so whole hardily into the system that they claim to oppose.

(November 29, 2013 at 7:43 pm)CapnAwesome Wrote: I evicted myself from the mini-van, so to speak. I really only have a few interests in life, rock climbing and sex, and van or no my girlfriend wasn't that into either of them.

But where DO you live?

Quote: But even though my lifestyle might be an extreme representation of living with less (or if you go to most of the world, a not so extreme version) everybody can consume less. There is a whole society of well educated kids from good backgrounds who have embraced a minimalistic lifestyle that most people are unaware of.

Everybody can consume less, yes. But most people have areas where they aren't willing to give up consumer goods. For me, it's food, alcohol, tickets, books. I don't want to do without them, and in buying these things, I support performers, writers, waiters, chefs, and local vineyards.

Quote:I don't understand how people can bitch about capitalism and consumerism (two separate things) and then buy so whole hardily into the system that they claim to oppose.

It is one thing to go crazy on Black Friday and kill other people to buy cheap Cabbage Patch Dolls. It's another to give up all consumer goods altogether. You seem to be presenting this as a black and white issue. It's not. I can go to a great restaurant and then to the opera (dressed to kill and wearing jewelry) and still be sad about the amount of consumerism in my country.

I guess it has to depend on you personality. As a child I alway saw myself as an intellectual, athletic, explorer, with the desire to experience some of the best things in life. I always loved astronomy, literature, music, travel, abstract thought, and comfort. I just reached my 60's, I have a large leather bound library, a world class audio system, two of the best telescopes made, travelled the world, a comfortable house and enough money to retire comfortably and not become a burden to society. Career wise I could have been much more successful and have many millions, but I tried to make decisions that allowed me to achieve my dreams and give me enough time to enjoy them. So living on less would never had cut it for me. I can respect folks that do, provided they are responsible.that they plan for retirement and health care in a responsible way, so not to become a burden on society. Dragging along the bottom rungs and not planning for retirement is just irresponsible to me. Living a small footprint and being smart and responsible I really have to respect. I couldn't do it. JD

(November 29, 2013 at 8:00 pm)Zazzy Wrote:

(November 29, 2013 at 7:43 pm)CapnAwesome Wrote: I evicted myself from the mini-van, so to speak. I really only have a few interests in life, rock climbing and sex, and van or no my girlfriend wasn't that into either of them.

But where DO you live?

Quote: But even though my lifestyle might be an extreme representation of living with less (or if you go to most of the world, a not so extreme version) everybody can consume less. There is a whole society of well educated kids from good backgrounds who have embraced a minimalistic lifestyle that most people are unaware of.

Everybody can consume less, yes. But most people have areas where they aren't willing to give up consumer goods. For me, it's food, alcohol, tickets, books. I don't want to do without them, and in buying these things, I support performers, writers, waiters, chefs, and local vineyards.

Quote:I don't understand how people can bitch about capitalism and consumerism (two separate things) and then buy so whole hardily into the system that they claim to oppose.

It is one thing to go crazy on Black Friday and kill other people to buy cheap Cabbage Patch Dolls. It's another to give up all consumer goods altogether. You seem to be presenting this as a black and white issue. It's not. I can go to a great restaurant and then to the opera (dressed to kill and wearing jewelry) and still be sad about the amount of consumerism in my country.

I live in a rock climbing campground in Southern California. To say I live anywhere is not a very accurate statement, I'm nomadic and cars don't suit my lifestyle very well.

I think you can be sad about the consumerism, I know someone who does animal testing and is constantly sad about it. Being sad is way different than actually living up to the standards you promote. That Jewelry most likely comes from suffering in Africa. Is it worth it to look good (subjectively) so that other people suffer? It's what's wrong with our society. It's why it will collapse, and it's why the environment is being destroyed.

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(November 29, 2013 at 8:07 pm)JDFlood Wrote: I guess it has to depend on you personality. As a child I alway saw myself as an intellectual, athletic, explorer, with the desire to experience some of the best things in life. I always loved astronomy, literature, music, travel, abstract thought, and comfort. I just reached my 60's, I have a large leather bound library, a world class audio system, two of the best telescopes made, travelled the world, a comfortable house and enough money to retire comfortably and not become a burden to society. Career wise I could have been much more successful and have many millions, but I tried to make decisions that allowed me to achieve my dreams and give me enough time to enjoy them. So living on less would never had cut it for me. I can respect folks that do, provided they are responsible.that they plan for retirement and health care in a responsible way, so not to become a burden on society. Dragging along the bottom rungs and not planning for retirement is just irresponsible to me. Living a small footprint and being smart and responsible I really have to respect. I couldn't do it. JD

What do you mean you couldn't do it? Of course you could, you just chose not to.

(November 29, 2013 at 7:43 pm)CapnAwesome Wrote: There is a whole society of well educated kids from good backgrounds who have embraced a minimalistic lifestyle that most people are unaware of. I don't understand how people can bitch about capitalism and consumerism (two separate things) and then buy so whole hardily into the system that they claim to oppose.

Assuming this society of kids live as you, why did they waste their time(presumably), and parents' money on a good education? This smacks of hypocrisy and rebellion on the surface, at minimum. I also imagine with a parental safety net playing hippie is easier.

Having a family and 3 kids... it wouldn't be easy to move everyone around without a car.... also, it's nice to have a roof over our heads and not depend on state subsidies.
So... just the roof (in the capital) is costing something like 2500€ per year, plus electricity, gas, water, internet... easily reaching 3500€ ~4000€ per year.
The car takes some 1500€~2000€ per year, and it's not a large car... Seat Ibiza, 2009, 1.2, gasoline.

Add food, clothing, kindergarten, and the occasional luxury, like tv, phone, toys, tools... and life requires more than 10k€per year.

But, then again... this is for 5 people... each is probably spending... less than 3k€!

(November 29, 2013 at 8:13 pm)CapnAwesome Wrote: That Jewelry most likely comes from suffering in Africa. Is it worth it to look good (subjectively) so that other people suffer? It's what's wrong with our society. It's why it will collapse, and it's why the environment is being destroyed.

Y'know how we hate it when theists make assumptions?

I own no diamonds. Not one. Never will. All my jewelry is either inherited, or bought from the person who made it.

If you're going to judge me for wearing jewelry, you're an asshole.

(November 29, 2013 at 8:24 pm)Zazzy Wrote: If you're going to judge me for wearing jewelry, you're an asshole.

I like toe rings on chicks