Nelson Mandela dies.

[Aractus]

So the ending of apartheid 20 years ago isn't an advancement in your opinion?

Yes fair enough that is a valid advancement. And it was the last advancement in South Africa, so you could say that there's been no advancement made in the last 20 years - that still includes Mandela's term of presidency.

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Yes, taking up arms against his government was a wonderful start (and an act with a long and honourable tradition).

Was it? So anyone who has a gripe with their government should bare arms and respond violently?

I agree that when he was released from prison he was a model citizen, and lead an extraordinary life - from that point on - but here in Australia and just about everywhere else in the world we recognize the right to peaceful protest and not violent protests.

[BrianSoddingBoru4]

but here in Australia and just about everywhere else in the world we recognize the right to peaceful protest and not violent protests.

I see. So the American and French revolutions were wrong? The Anglo-Irish war was wrong?

Personally, I would love to see a world where unjust and oppressive governments could always be brought to reason by peaceful protest, but that's not the way the world wags.

Boru

[Lion IRC]

Can we not use this thread for stupid fights? Have some fucking respect, people.

Fair point. Sorry.

But, it IS Brian's thread. And he seems to have taken exception to me praising NM's religious values which he lived. (Especially the way he forgave his former enemies and even in prison, he remained calm and stoic.)

[Marvin]

So anyone who has a gripe with their government should bare arms and respond violently?

A white invader minority declares themselves the government and disenfranchises the black majority. Some black folks become upset.
What's with these people, don't they know the rules?

[The_Thinking_Theist]

What a great guy.

There's some real good people on earth, be it the Pope or Dali Lama, but I believe we've lost a good one.

[CleanShavenJesus]

So the ending of apartheid 20 years ago isn't an advancement in your opinion?

Yes fair enough that is a valid advancement. And it was the last advancement in South Africa, so you could say that there's been no advancement made in the last 20 years - that still includes Mandela's term of presidency.

I'd agree with you here, in that South Africa has made no advancements past the ending of the apartheid (and the riddance of their nuclear arsenal.)

Fiscally, South Africa was doing better prior to the ANC taking charge. Unemployment in the country went up nearly 30% under ANC control, poverty levels among white South Africans increased by a large amount, and the HIV pandemic in South Africa was/is handled extremely poorly by the ANC. It's still in very poor condition and it's mostly the leaders since the ANC took charge's faults.

However, I still believe that when it comes to human rights, South Africa has obviously improved immensely. The apartheid was a disgusting blatant disregard for human rights, and Nelson Mandela should still be regarded as a hero for what he did to put an end to it.

I don't believe your debate should be in this topic, because Mandela's campaign against the National Party's apartheid really turned the country upside down. I believe it won't be a few more decades until South Africa can truly recover from it all and begin improvements.

[Brian37]

Can we not use this thread for stupid fights? Have some fucking respect, people.

I don't want people to "respect" me. It is stupid to expect 7 billion people to only say nice things about each other. As far as Lion he can come after me if he wants on this issue or any other. This is about his claims, not him the person. I don't take it personally and I would hope Lion doesn't either.

I want people to value my position, because it is correct, not because I want it to be right or feel it is right. "Respect" means "Don't bruise my ego". I don't value people who want to set up taboos to avoid verbal conflict. It should be more important what the facts are, than the fact either of us bitch at each other.

When I say Mandela's beliefs on god should not matter, it is because our species no matter our labels, have always displayed the same capacity for both cruelty and kindness.

I am going to assume that Lion is an adult and can handle himself, so please don't decide for him or me how we have our conversation.

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Can we not use this thread for stupid fights? Have some fucking respect, people.

Fair point. Sorry.

But, it IS Brian's thread. And he seems to have taken exception to me praising NM's religious values which he lived. (Especially the way he forgave his former enemies and even in prison, he remained calm and stoic.)

Um you think that is lost on me? He was a leader a president, when you are that high up in the public eye your behavior is different. Now considering how oppressed his people were, do you think he'd have the attitude of "don't offend me", which was the attitude of those who oppressed him?

In a U.N. Speech, I do believe it was the last one, Obama pretty much defended offensive speech and was basically calling out countries that have laws that ban dissent and criticism and blasphemy. He said something to the affect " I hear it all the time"......Meaning his critics and and people calling him all sorts of names. He was calling out those oppressive governments basically saying to get along you do have to realize, within even your own country, you are going to hear things you don't like.

He's right, because in a free society to have that peaceful transfer of power YOU CANT set up taboos.

One of my favorite founders personal letters was from Jefferson in response to Adams. Adams had sent him a letter complaining about the media mud slinging and that society needed to "respect their elected officials.

Jefferson, in much more lofty and proper prose than I can write responded to the affect, "Dude, you're kidding, right? We did not fight a revolution to tell the people they couldn't have their opinions of us or blaspheme us, grow up, it is going to happen".

There is a huge difference between protecting an office as part of an institution, and having an opinion of those who hold those offices. I don't think Mandela would demand taboos and set up censorship anymore than say Malala or King. They'd all probably say, it isn't a matter of forcing others to be silent, but how you deal with others when they say things you don't like.

[Nineteen]

Who cares. I dont like him.

He's another fake man of the people. I watched the news this morning confirms that. 110 million dollar bank account. What a hero.

[Brian37]

What a great guy.

There's some real good people on earth, be it the Pope or Dali Lama, but I believe we've lost a good one.

I really hate this shit. Religious people can be good, yes but that does not make religion as a concept itself good. It allows humans to forget that we are not a separate species and ignores that our morality is evolutionary, not magical.

Whatever good we see in individuals does not change that the superstitious institutions those people support magically change human behavior.

The Vatican and the Church were started in an ignorant age and dominated a very oppressive time and still to this day are always Johny come lately.

Buddhism doesn't get a pass either. It dominates SEVERAL oriental countries who have politics that divide them. Having sympathy for Tibet does not make the collective history of Buddhism violence free. Anyone who thinks Buddhists can't be violent needs to follow the orient in it's entire history.

Everyone is masturbating over the current Pope's statements about "focus". I find his lack of moral courage vile and a very half assed pandering to progressives.

He didn't flat out say "fuck the bible, homophobia is wrong", he did not say "gays should be allowed to get married and or serve in our clergy". He was a coward and merely said "lets not focus on that, don't judge". Now before anyone blasts me, I am a former Catholic.

And when was the last time you saw either a female pope or female Dali Lama? The sexism alone in both is enough to reject them. There may be some powers allowed to some extent for women, but not equal power. I will never value an institution that does not allow women to compete for the top spots.

Religion can be watered down and lend the appearance of tolerance, but the intellectual cost in doing such lends future generations to repeat the same stupid mistakes.

There is no way religion, as a concept is unifying. Nature and nature alone explains our behaviors and even our species delusions, not childish reflections of our own selfish desires.

Now having said that I am under no delusion that it will magically go away or that force can be used to rid the world of it. But it should never get taboo status or ever think it is above scrutiny.

The God Delusion Richard Dawkins.
The New Atheism, Victor Stenger
God Is Not Great, Christopher Hitchens
The End of Faith, Sam Harris
Infidel, Ayaan Hersi Ali
Letter To a Christian Nation, Sam Harris

That is my short reading list and what has shaped my position on ALL religions.

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Who cares. I dont like him.

He's another fake man of the people. I watched the news this morning confirms that. 110 million dollar bank account. What a hero.

No he was not fake. Where the fuck do you get that from? Because he became famous? Because he was rewarded for his efforts? If someone is fake because they benefit financially off of suffering then Malala is a fake too because she earned money writing a book about her experience of girls being oppressed by sexist Muslim thugs.

There are certainly lots of religious fakes, Mandela was not one of them.

You want real fakes? Joel Osteen, Ray Comfort, Jerry Falwell, Pat Robertson, and the Imams who control Iran. Those are fakes merely out for money and power.

I can find lots of fault with religion as a concept, and certainly would not be afraid to tell Mandela if I could "What you did was great, but you didn't need a god to do it".

Mandela was a great man and would protect your human rights as well.

[kılıç_mehmet]

Well, he was a well known-breed of a leader, a nationalist that was supported by internationalists, and what he did was basically to advocate "black" nationalism in South Africa. Don't think that he was much of a human rights activist, but more like an armed revolutionary who supported use of violence to archive their goals, which is fine by me, though why he later on went to be idolized as a human rights activist is beyond me, whereas his intentions were nothing but nationalistic in nature.
The fact that South Africa went worse after his rule does not mean that his struggle was in vain. Like, not everything in this world is money, or food. National dignitiy is sometimes more important than materialistic things.
So he set out to oust the white colonists from the rule and reinstate the Bantu-africans as the ones that call the shots. The slogans ""Kill the boer, kill the farmer" and "one settler one bullet" were chanted through his era which shows us that we were not looking at a human rights struggle, but a fine example of a race war.
Nelson Mandela was the leader of the Blacks in this war, and after he was set free and became the head of the state, attacks against boer farmers increased with each day passing.
Don't get me wrong, its really none of my business, but to mourn this man as a human rights activist is a bit too much.
And those who ought to mourn his passing are the south african Bantus, not anyone else.