Do all Muslims bear responsibility?

[JohnCrichton72]

I have a belief that makes me feel somewhat uncomfortable, that all Muslims bear a responsibility for those that would (insert crime with Islam given as provocation here). I was hoping to have it shot down if I am to be honest, as it has somewhat festered into a dislike of any that call themselves Muslim and a wish for Islam "alone" to be banned from the UK.

I am all for freedom of religion, but I also believe it comes a burden of social responsibility;

I'll even put a plug in, what sickens me the most, the making women into chattel/marrying of little girls to dirty old men/polygamy/FGM/supremacist attitude that coupled with these has turned Sweden into the rape capital of Europe/paedophile rings.
One thing at a time and all.

It appears, and this is where I believe the flaw in my understanding might lay, that there are one of two options available. Islam is a provocation for violence for Muslims, or, is far too easily misinterpreted as such. To give it some context;

If memory serves, a PEW survey from 2012 gathered data on some 38,000+ Muslims and 28% thought violence in the defence of Islam is justifiable.

Which ever, if either, are right. The solution seems the same;

Muslims should change their religious doctrine (or be forcefully deported to the Islamic country of their choice), Islam as it stands is a catalyst for violence and a danger to everyone including Muslims. When some one third of their believers have misinterpreted the religion to advocate violence and are going to "HELL", whilst other believe that murdering women and children along with themselves will get them eternal life it should be banned.

[max-greece]

Bare responsibility?

Well you show me yours and I'll show you mine.

(Hint - Bear Responsibility)

[JohnCrichton72]

Bare responsibility?

Well you show me yours and I'll show you mine.

(Hint - Bear Responsibility)

Haha been up all night, I wonder how many other grammatical errors there are. I also wonder how many other people are going to responded to that instead of what I typed.......... FECK !

[max-greece]

Bare responsibility?

Well you show me yours and I'll show you mine.

(Hint - Bear Responsibility)

Haha been up all night, I wonder how many other grammatical errors there are. I also wonder how many other people are going to responded to that instead of what I typed.......... FECK !

Sorry about that - just couldn't resist.

As for your actual content I basically agree, but I don't think this is unique to Islam.

Islam is 700 years younger than Christianity. To me that is the only difference between them. Just look how Christians were behaving 700 years ago. Look what the Jews were doing in Biblical times.

Religion, throughout our history, has provided prefect cover for appalling behaviour.

[Duck]

I think that you certainly have a point, and many people probably agree with you even if they won't publicly admit it. I don't agree with the end of your post; I don't think that deportation would be of any real value. As soon as you started it would quickly become apparent that a little bit of lying and deception from those being questioned would make it almost impossible to enforce.

[BrianSoddingBoru4]

I have a belief that makes me feel somewhat uncomfortable,

Given the rest of your post, it should do.

that all Muslims bare a responsibility for those that would (insert crime with Islam given as provocation here).

So, when a Christian loony shoots an abortion provider, all Christians bear the responsibility? More to the point, do you personally, as an atheist, feel that you bear the responsibility for Stalin's crimes?

I was hoping to have it shot down if I am to be honest, as it has somewhat festered into a dislike of any that call themselves Muslim and a wish for Islam "alone" to be banned from the UK.

Do you also support the deportation of all Catholics from the UK due to actions of the IRA savages? Do you also support deportation of all Protestants because of the actions of the UVF, etc?

I am all for freedom of religion,

*chuckle* No, you're not.

but I also believe it comes a burden of social responsibility;

I agree. But social responsibility doesn't include the mass deportation of innocent people due to the actions of the lunatic fringe. To even suggest such a thing is a sign of social irresponsibility on YOUR part.

I'll even put a plug in, what sickens me the most, the making women into chattel/marrying of little girls to dirty old men/polygamy/FGM/supremacist attitude

Leave out FGM and your description could include Mormonism. Is it your plant to evict Mormons from the UK as well? Change FGM to MGM and you'd be evicting Jews as well.

that coupled with these has turned Sweden into the rape capital of Europe/paedophile rings.
One thing at a time and all.

So...you're contending that the 6% Muslim population of Sweden is responsible for the majority of the rape and paedophilia in that country?

It appears, and this is where I believe the flaw in my understanding might lay, that there are one of two options available. Islam is a provocation for violence for Muslims, or, is far too easily misinterpreted as such. To give it some context;

ALL religions are a provocation to violence. No exceptions.

If memory serves, a PEW survey from 2012 gathered data on some 38,000+ Muslims and 28% thought violence in the defence of Islam is justifiable.

Assuming for the sake of argument that you've remembered this correctly, why would you seek to punish - by forced relocation - 72% of Muslim for the beliefs (NOT the actions) of a minority?

Which ever, if either, are right. The solution seems the same;

Muslims should change their religious doctrine (or be forcefully deported to the Islamic country of their choice), Islam as it stands is a catalyst for violence and a danger to everyone including Muslims. When some one third of their believers have misinterpreted the religion to advocate violence and are going to "HELL", whilst other believe that murdering women and children along with themselves will get them eternal life it should be banned.

Glad to see that you're 'all for religious freedom'.

Boru

[Fidel_Castronaut]

I think it was hitchens (although he most likely took an idea long proposed) that said the only way extremists can fester their ideologies is through the silence of the majority who disagree or are indifferent.

"All that is necessary for evil..." And all that.

The fact that any attack or murder (or even a prominence of FGM in some African Islamic communities in Europe/UK) perpetrated by Islamists is generally met by a wall of silence from anyone who could be regarded as an authority for various Islamic communities and sects speaks volumes IMHO. It is this behaviour of ignoring/silently agreeing that is the true enabler of such crimes, and the reason why they'll continue in the future.

Of course it's not exclusively true that this is the case, and there have been condemnations by both authorities and the laity in the past, but I struggle to think of a great example.

I regularly engage in debate with a Muslim friend of mine over FB who I went to school with. Nice lad, very intelligent, overall just a normal guy. But as soon as we start talking about Islam he descends into the realms of justifying the indefensible, such as the right not to offend religion [islam]. He honestly thought that his religious beliefs deserved to be respected, and even went so far as to condemn all those that sought to criticize his religion as just short of evil and no worse than than terrorists themselves.

It's an odd mental compartmentalization he has in this regard which I have no doubt is due to the indoctrination he went through as a child and the reinforcement of these beliefs through whichever Islamic sect community he belongs to.

The deportation idea however I think is rather silly. We can't ignore the fact that (in the UK) most non 1st generation migrant descendants are in fact British, were born here and have the right to remain here.

The right solution is engagement and knocking down barriers to dialogue and And discourse. It's a slow process and often produces no results. But it took Europe nearly 500 years to create a secular realm that omitted the Christian church(es) from sovereignty and the decision making process, which in turn moderated the majority of church congregations and has eventually led to disenchantment with the church altogether (record lows in attendance and active beliefs in the UK for mainstream Christian sects). Things take time, and this is no different.

[JohnCrichton72]

Haha been up all night, I wonder how many other grammatical errors there are. I also wonder how many other people are going to responded to that instead of what I typed.......... FECK !

Sorry about that - just couldn't resist.

As for your actual content I basically agree, but I don't think this is unique to Islam.

Islam is 700 years younger than Christianity. To me that is the only difference between them. Just look how Christians were behaving 700 years ago. Look what the Jews were doing in Biblical times.

Religion, throughout our history, has provided prefect cover for appalling behaviour.

Don't be, I would have many a post that would have just been referring to nudity had you not.

What you appear to be doing is saying all religions have done X, therefore all religions are the same? seems flawed.

That aside, drawing a contrast with 14th century Christians does not do anything productive.

Also, was the term faggot first coined as a phrase for the homosexuals they would throw on the fires during witch burnings? Don't know where I got that from.

[pineapplebunnybounce]

I'm going to take a position I very very rarely take with Islam and muslims.

Violence in Islam is less common in secular countries where the governing system isn't Islamic. People may respond in a poll saying they defend violence, but they're hardly likely to do it themselves. The same goes for shariah law, many muslims if asked will say yes shariah is superior. But if they truly believed so they would not be in secular countries, many of them have left Islamic countries to come to secular countries. Although this may not apply to the first generation immigrants, it does to a certain extent, applies to those who grew up in secular countries. I'm talking about those who live in secular countries. In muslim countries they do seem to like shariah (but who really knows).

That said, yes, Islam is horrible to women and actually they're horrible to men and women, women just get it worse. And any muslims who will not condemn those practices when asked should bear responsibility.

As for terrorists activity and paedophilia rings, their culture may precipitate these things, but I don't actually consider them "Islamic", as in normal muslims will not be taught to blow shit up or kidnap children at the mosque. Their culture (which is islamic) does make these things more likely to occur because it lacks respect for human lives, women and, in general, human dignity. Also it's not condemned as harshly as it is outside of islamic cultures I think. For things like honour killings (I saw a doc on this), other muslims who did not kill the girls believed that the girls deserved it. This is a very different culture and it would be reaching to suggest it doesn't affect how muslims act.

[JohnCrichton72]

Boru

Ermm, yeah OK. How much of this frivolous nonsense should I actually respond to?

The first point I guess, as I doubt you are the type of person to concede even the slightest to any other opinion. Lets see;

"Christian loony's shooting up abortion providers"
and, ok I don't even have to respond having read the rest of your first point.
"atheist, feel that you bear the responsibility for Stalin's crimes?"

Holy disco biscuits............ have fun being you.

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I'm going to take a position I very very rarely take with Islam and muslims.

Violence in Islam is less common in secular countries where the governing system isn't Islamic. People may respond in a poll saying they defend violence, but they're hardly likely to do it themselves. The same goes for shariah law, many muslims if asked will say yes shariah is superior. But if they truly believed so they would not be in secular countries, many of them have left Islamic countries to come to secular countries. Although this may not apply to the first generation immigrants, it does to a certain extent, applies to those who grew up in secular countries. I'm talking about those who live in secular countries. In muslim countries they do seem to like shariah (but who really knows).

That said, yes, Islam is horrible to women and actually they're horrible to men and women, women just get it worse. And any muslims who will not condemn those practices when asked should bear responsibility.

As for terrorists activity and paedophilia rings, their culture may precipitate these things, but I don't actually consider them "Islamic", as in normal muslims will not be taught to blow shit up or kidnap children at the mosque. Their culture (which is islamic) does make these things more likely to occur because it lacks respect for human lives, women and, in general, human dignity. Also it's not condemned as harshly as it is outside of islamic cultures I think. For things like honour killings (I saw a doc on this), other muslims who did not kill the girls believed that the girls deserved it. This is a very different culture and it would be reaching to suggest it doesn't affect how muslims act.

I somewhat understand, but when you consider that the Islamic community represents extremely small minorities in most Western countries and are already targeting non-combatants as they would of their rival Muslim sects in Islamic countries.

That is to say a segregation has occurred between them and everyone and a culture put in place that would facilitate the breeding of such acts, there is no telling how the growing of said community will become a factor in the amount of radicalisation per child. I am actually just done reading something that I think you might be interested in, if this topic interests you. http://blog.theproudatheist.com/is-islam...h-mousavi/

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I

I totally agree, but how do we engage. You have tried discourse with a good friend of Islamic conviction, as have I, neither of which bore fruit. What it did show was a complete lack willingness and displacement of the social responsibility, on both attempts (mine and yours).

That is not to say we give up and leave the Islamic community pitted against itself in the middle east until there is but one crazy Mohammedan left we can quarantine, but nor is it acceptable to me to put the women and children of (Insert Western country here) on the front line of a dialogue that will get them killed. Which is what has been done.

Also note the tempered nature of Christianity and Judaism came from "in house" criticism and want of change with natural societal growth (marked with great atrocities), any attempt at outside influence on the development of the Islamic culture further instils an us and them mentality, deepens segregation and provide a breeding ground for all the above.