Where did Jesus go?

[Drich]

Since when has our perception defined God's reality?

What is 'up' to God?

Drich, answer this simple question.

Do you think God wrote the bible for the benefit of humans, or humans wrote the bible for the benefit of God?

Neither.

God used people to write the bible so people who wanted to connect to God would be able to do so.

In the end it is not an 'either or' because both benfit.

[xpastor]

Drich, answer this simple question.

Do you think God wrote the bible for the benefit of humans, or humans wrote the bible for the benefit of God?

Neither.

God used people to write the bible so people who wanted to connect to God would be able to do so.

In the end it is not an 'either or' because both benfit.

Yeah, yeah. The point is, if the bible is written to bring people to God, then it must be written in human terms, not some arcane incomprehensible language where up does not mean up.

In other words, in Acts 1 up means up. Anyway you slice it or dice it, the bible represents Jesus floating up in the direction of the stratosphere, but we now know there is no stopping point out there. The people in his time did not know this.

[Drich]

Neither.

God used people to write the bible so people who wanted to connect to God would be able to do so.

In the end it is not an 'either or' because both benfit.

Yeah, yeah. The point is, if the bible is written to bring people to God, then it must be written in human terms, not some arcane incomprehensible language where up does not mean up.

In other words, in Acts 1 up means up. Anyway you slice it or dice it, the bible represents Jesus floating up in the direction of the stratosphere, but we now know there is no stopping point out there. The people in his time did not know this.

I agree. So if Jesus simply disolved away like a ghost to enter into the realm of Heaven, what would the 'common man's' understanding have been?' Maybe that He was not alive/resurected in physical form and that He was a spiritual being?

What if God did not want us to have that understanding?

What if God wanted us to carry on with the Idea that we will exist again in physical form as Christ did, but still exist in Heaven, where or How could Christ have exited this plain of existance for his own, and still maintain that core principle?

Would you have Him walk away? to where? into the sunset? What ever direction He picked, Heaven would have thought to be in that physical direction. Then what? pray in the direction of heaven two or three times aday like a bunch of shmoes? send people on expidetitions in that general direction? Look at the madness of the dark ages for holy sites, could you imagine the wars fought over the land in the direction Jesus walk off into? Look at the scale and destruction of the crusades? for what the land that these 'things' once happened in? Now imagine the destruction that could be justified for God's land.

Up, is the perfect direction. It was not attainable by any of us until we were sophisticated enough to understand that Heaven does not have to be of this world/realm. "Up" also perserved the idea or need for the physical relocation of a person away from this world this realm in that time and in this.

[Chad32]

Personally I don't think I'd ever have him leave. I'd have a bunch of guys like him, all over the world, performing miracles that can't be explained through natural means. Have these people be immortal, so they don't die. Make my presence indisputable, especially if for some reason I decided the penalty for not believing is torture. Not that I would, because I'm not a psychopath.

Well really, I'd probably do it a lot differently than what is claimed to be done. Something like, those who worship me will always be better off thn those who don't, and not because I'm actively making other people's lives worse for not worshiping me.

[djkamilo]

Given that our telescopes have peered billions of light-years beyond what the ancients perceived as the vault of the sky, it seems plain that Jesus and the biblical heaven are nowhere to be found.

That always bothered me as a Christian. It always did. Not to mention the importance of the doctrine of the physical resurrection of Jesus. If he rose and ascended as the bible and all the creeds and all the confessions say, where did he go? he needs to be physical mind you and at the same time reign over heaven and earth at the same time.

Would you have Him walk away? to where? into the sunset? What ever direction He picked, Heaven would have thought to be in that physical direction. Then what? pray in the direction of heaven two or three times aday like a bunch of shmoes? send people on expidetitions in that general direction? Look at the madness of the dark ages for holy sites, could you imagine the wars fought over the land in the direction Jesus walk off into? Look at the scale and destruction of the crusades? for what the land that these 'things' once happened in? Now imagine the destruction that could be justified for God's land.

Up, is the perfect direction. It was not attainable by any of us until we were sophisticated enough to understand that Heaven does not have to be of this world/realm. "Up" also perserved the idea or need for the physical relocation of a person away from this world this realm in that time and in this.

That's a great rationalization, but it still fails to harmonize how a 'physical' Jesus is in 'heaven' but we can't see him anywhere in the physical world.

[Drich]

Personally I don't think I'd ever have him leave. I'd have a bunch of guys like him, all over the world, performing miracles that can't be explained through natural means.

Funny up to this point God thought the same thing. If you read what Jesus said was his reason for leaving, it was so a buch a guys could be empowered to do what you said.

Have these people be immortal, so they don't die.

This would be a terriable prison sentence. Who wants to live and work forever when the goal is to prove yourself and move on to Heaven?

Make my presence indisputable, especially if for some reason I decided the penalty for not believing is torture. Not that I would, because I'm not a psychopath.

If your presence is indisputable, then the one choice we were sent in this life to make is now gone.
For who would choose Hell if it was absolutlely known God was watching over them? The people who choose Hell now would still goto Hell, but have gone through the motions of choosing God. all the while not knowing any better. Think of the dark ages where belief in God was absolute and mandatory. This is what 'absolute certainty' about the reality of God looks like when man and his religions have their way.

Well really, I'd probably do it a lot differently than what is claimed to be done. Something like, those who worship me will always be better off thn those who don't, and not because I'm actively making other people's lives worse for not worshiping me.

I'm not a rich man by most western standards, (no where close) but i do deal with very large sums of money. As a result I know that your 'way of doing things' would only breed greedy ass kissers who would focous their worship on the deeds they did so they could continue to level up and get more of the 'things' you were offering.
You may want to surround yourself with gold diggers, but The God of the bible does not.

[Minimalist]

So if Jesus simply disolved away like a ghost to enter into the realm of Heaven, what would the 'common man's' understanding have been?'

It's been done.

[Drich]

That's a great rationalization, but it still fails to harmonize how a 'physical' Jesus is in 'heaven' but we can't see him anywhere in the physical world.

Actually i did. In the beginning of the quoted post i said:

I agree. So if Jesus simply disolved away like a ghost to enter into the realm of Heaven, what would the 'common man's' understanding have been?' Maybe that He was not alive/resurected in physical form and that He was a spiritual being?

Jesus went 'up' to His realm of Heaven. Verses disolving away into His realm before their eyes.

Again by entering Heaven in the Clouds verses entering Heaven on earth (via disolving away or walking away) it maintains the idea that we stay in a corporeal form, and it keeps us from fighting over some idea of what direction or land Heaven is physically in.

[Chad32]

Personally I don't think I'd ever have him leave. I'd have a bunch of guys like him, all over the world, performing miracles that can't be explained through natural means.

Funny up to this point God thought the same thing. If you read what Jesus said was his reason for leaving, it was so a bunch a guys could be empowered to do what you said.

But they weren't. If they were, the existence of Yahweh wouldn't be in dispute. We'd be able to see someone regrow their legs after an amputation. We'd see someone brought back to life after their brain stops functioning for days. No one has gotten a nobel prize for this stuff because these great miracles always seem to happen away from the educated.

Have these people be immortal, so they don't die.

This would be a terrible prison sentence. Who wants to live and work forever when the goal is to prove yourself and move on to Heaven?[/quote]
If they were created by me, the hypothetical deity, then they'd probably visit heaven from time to time too.

Make my presence indisputable, especially if for some reason I decided the penalty for not believing is torture. Not that I would, because I'm not a psychopath.

If your presence is indisputable, then the one choice we were sent in this life to make is now gone.
For who would choose Hell if it was absolutely known God was watching over them? The people who choose Hell now would still go to Hell, but have gone through the motions of choosing God. all the while not knowing any better. Think of the dark ages where belief in God was absolute and mandatory. This is what 'absolute certainty' about the reality of God looks like when man and his religions have their way.[/quote]
The choice wouldn't be gone. I know my parents exist, and I'm not bound to obey them without question. I just wouldn't make the options either worship me or get tortured.

Well really, I'd probably do it a lot differently than what is claimed to be done. Something like, those who worship me will always be better off than those who don't, and not because I'm actively making other people's lives worse for not worshiping me.

I'm not a rich man by most western standards, (no where close) but i do deal with very large sums of money. As a result I know that your 'way of doing things' would only breed greedy ass kissers who would focus their worship on the deeds they did so they could continue to level up and get more of the 'things' you were offering.
You may want to surround yourself with gold diggers, but The God of the bible does not.
[/quote]

I do believe that deeds should be more important than belief. Works show what a person is. People should be rewarded for doing good. Grace through faith is more like ass kissing. Just believe in the right god, and you get rewarded. Works come at a distant second, if they mean anything at all. Yahweh wants to be worshiped. He doesn't really care about you, since he plainly says that you are evil, your works are like dirty rags, and the only good thing you can possibly do is to give up everything about you and obey his every command.

I'm a much nicer and fair person than he ever was.

[Godlesspanther]

The members of the infamous Heaven's Gate cult believed that Jesus was taken aboard a spacecraft. It was described in the Bible as a "white light" because the folks at the time had no frame of reference for a spacecraft -- so they just described it the best they knew how -- a "white light."

Heaven's Gate is the cult in which 39 members committed suicide in order to hitch a ride on the Hale-Bopp comet -- so they believed. They also believed in Jesus -- so that makes them true xtians, I guess.