CHISTIANS PLEASE EXPLAIN

[Carnavon]

I do not quite know what you mean by “harming”. It seems to me that if you have made a choice, and being warned of the consequences prior to the effects, you are not being “harmed”, but receive that which you have knowingly made a choice for.

We are being harmed because Christian salvation is God saving us from a fire he himself set. It's a stupendously horrifying extortion and it boggles the mind that there are so many people who play into it.

Justice requires penalty/retribution. That is also a concept in law “The punishment must fit the crime”, or in Bible language – “an eye for an eye.” You will know that each one of us sin against God’s law (as reflected in the Bible) on a daily basis. Not only by our outward actions, but also by our thoughts. So some form of penalty is due. You can choose to pay the penalty yourself, or accept Jesus’ substitutionary death on the cross for your sins.

What you describe is not justice. It is simple, animal revenge. It is the "justice" of the cruel and wicked, and the "crime" is opting to not enslave ourselves.

The worst part about the entire nightmarish fairy tale is that, by any objective measure, God is ultimately responsible for every single evil that exists in a universe he allegedly made. We're just the hapless victims, and Christianity blames the products for the flaws intentionally and maliciously designed by their creator.

Of course, all of this should be read in the context, because it's all totally fictional horseshit. I'm not infantile enough to believe that the divine tyrant Yahweh exists, nor am I such a deliberate psychopath that I wish he did.

Just a quick couple of comments:
1) You have yourself offered the solution – you have been given the “tools” to prevent “harm” to yourself. You however voluntarily choose to reject this. Sorry, you wish to live as you choose and not accept the responsibility for your decisions but blame the “person” that has warned you of the consequences?
By law smokers are advised of the possible negative consequences of smoking. You ignore it wilfully and must by implication accept the consequences.
2) My friend, you are not responsible for your actions? The typical “victim” syndrome. Get a grip on life and for once accept responsibility.
3) Totally fictitious? You wish, but there exists sufficient evidence to make a very strong case that He does. For one abiogenesis, another will be historical comments from both Christian as well as reliable secular sources and yet another will be prophecy.
In respect of prophecy it beats me how the world is clamoring to make the Bible prophecy of a one-world government true. It is actually quite funny!

[Sinnersburninhell100]

We are being harmed because Christian salvation is God saving us from a fire he himself set. It's a stupendously horrifying extortion and it boggles the mind that there are so many people who play into it.

What you describe is not justice. It is simple, animal revenge. It is the "justice" of the cruel and wicked, and the "crime" is opting to not enslave ourselves.

The worst part about the entire nightmarish fairy tale is that, by any objective measure, God is ultimately responsible for every single evil that exists in a universe he allegedly made. We're just the hapless victims, and Christianity blames the products for the flaws intentionally and maliciously designed by their creator.

Of course, all of this should be read in the context, because it's all totally fictional horseshit. I'm not infantile enough to believe that the divine tyrant Yahweh exists, nor am I such a deliberate psychopath that I wish he did.

Just a quick couple of comments:
1) You have yourself offered the solution – you have been given the “tools” to prevent “harm” to yourself. You however voluntarily choose to reject this. Sorry, you wish to live as you choose and not accept the responsibility for your decisions but blame the “person” that has warned you of the consequences?
By law smokers are advised of the possible negative consequences of smoking. You ignore it wilfully and must by implication accept the consequences.
2) My friend, you are not responsible for your actions? The typical “victim” syndrome. Get a grip on life and for once accept responsibility.
3) Totally fictitious? You wish, but there exists sufficient evidence to make a very strong case that He does. For one abiogenesis, another will be historical comments from both Christian as well as reliable secular sources and yet another will be prophecy.
In respect of prophecy it beats me how the world is clamoring to make the Bible prophecy of a one-world government true. It is actually quite funny!

You tell them!

[Carnavon]

I do not quite know what you mean by “harming”. It seems to me that if you have made a choice, and being warned of the consequences prior to the effects, you are not being “harmed”, but receive that which you have knowingly made a choice for.

You are walking home, when a man stops you in the street, brandishing a knife. He tells you to hand over your wallet, or he is going to stab you. If you refuse to surrender your wallet and give in to the unfair choice foisted upon you by this additional party, is the man justified in stabbing you to death?

You get in your car to drive, and end up crashing, rolling into a ditch. Is the rescue crew justified in leaving you there, after admonishing you that you knew this was a risk of driving, and yet knowingly did so anyway?

Or do we recognize, in the former case, that choices demanded of us outside of our control are not ones that we make freely? And do we recognize, in the latter case, that making that choice and reaching a bad end does not absolve others of the morality of helping?

I find it curious that you attribute every good act of charity and aid to your god, yet you aren't surprised when he never lifts a finger to do any himself.

Some good points. In the first instance with the chap with the knife – the “punishment” is not something you deserved because of any action on your behalf. If you chose to be confronted with this chap brandishing his knife – good luck to you!
The car – nope they should not leave you there. You have however not prevented them from assisting you. If you reject their offer and make it impossible for them to assist, you blame them? So everything is somebody else’s fault but your own? Jesus has offered you help – paying with his own life so you can live. The “paramedic” has in fact already died and offered you the escape/assitance in doing so, but you refuse. Yet you blame him?

You suggest “outside our control”. My friend, are you suggesting that it is impossible for you to accept Jesus as Saviour? Why? Please do not suggest logic. There is as much logic if not more (if you dare to evaluate matters objectively) in accepting Jesus as there is claimed to exist for rejecting Him. It is an “emotional” decision (rebellion) and not intellectual at all.

You are wrong. If you read the Bible, you will see that God sends the “good stuff” as well as calamity.

He did not “lift a finger” is obviously incorrect as He died for the sins of those that believe in Him – which He offers freely- without having to “earn” it. Place your trust in Jesus, let go of wanting to be in control, repent of your sins and live a holy life. It is not that easy and will open you up to ridicule etc.

Consider the message from qôheleth in Ecclesiates. This life is like a puff of smoke and “chasing after wind”. “All is vanity” yet we fret and continue as if this life has any real meaning in itself. Where is the late Mr Mandela? What does he have for all his labour in this world? A country full of crime, corruption, maladministration etc.?
Yet there is beauty, courage honour as well even in poor townships, forests, streams. But this will all pass away – as we all do.

[Vicki Q]

God sends forth two bears to kill forty-two children for making fun of Elisha’s bald head (2 Kings 2:23-24). Why would the omnibenevolent God feel the necessity to have two bears viciously maul little children for acting like…children? This is supposed to be the same “wonderful” and “loving” God who promises us eternal life. HMMM.

It's a textbook case of understanding the context. This is a little lengthy, so bear with me.


Firstly, and most importantly, no children were harmed in the making of this story. Or bears, if that's more important to you. It's a story. Children die in stories all the time, and no-one gets irate. Hansel and Gretel? Pied Piper?

Secondly, it's not about baldness. There is no indication anywhere that Elisha went prematurely bald, and he lived long after these events. Elijah had only just gone to heaven, and the context makes it clear that Elisha had done the ritual head shaving that was funeral custom at the time.

Thirdly, the Hebrew words used for 'boys' cover a spectrum from ankle biters to army ready young men. Think 'hoodie'. And lots and lots of them. Not nice if they take agin' you.

Fourthly, the town was a hotbed of religious tension, and the youths were on the God-disliking side. The writer is clearly telling us it's all about to kick off, with 'it' being Elisha's head.

Which explains why the rather odd phrase “Go up, you baldhead!” (ESV) gets used. It's not a normal term of threatening. They're basically saying “You're now going to follow your BFF in departing this earth”.

At which point in the story, God intervenes to protect His servant against His enemies; a bear, which was probably in the woods for the well known reason, and didn't appreciate the disturbance, decides to demonstrate the possible consequences of excessive noise.

It's a parable. It picks up on a number of key themes that occur throughout the OT. God looks after those of His people who are faithful. If God's people bring up their children to oppose God, it doesn't end well. It's a warning to the nation. Otherwise, nothing to see here.


I know there's musicals about Joseph, about Moses, and about Jonah. I'm thinking it's time to put pen to paper on this one.

[Ryantology]

Firstly, and most importantly, no children were harmed in the making of this story. Or bears, if that's more important to you. It's a story. Children die in stories all the time, and no-one gets irate. Hansel and Gretel? Pied Piper?

Nobody lives their lives under the assumption that Hansel and Gretel represent the real world in any way.

Secondly, it's not about baldness. There is no indication anywhere that Elisha went prematurely bald, and he lived long after these events. Elijah had only just gone to heaven, and the context makes it clear that Elisha had done the ritual head shaving that was funeral custom at the time.

No, it's not about baldness. It's about a god who really has a holy boner for disproportionate retribution.

Thirdly, the Hebrew words used for 'boys' cover a spectrum from ankle biters to army ready young men. Think 'hoodie'. And lots and lots of them. Not nice if they take agin' you.

Thirdly, the age is irrelevant. Murder doesn't become acceptable just because they weren't all actual children.

Fourthly, the town was a hotbed of religious tension, and the youths were on the God-disliking side. The writer is clearly telling us it's all about to kick off, with 'it' being Elisha's head.

Which explains why the rather odd phrase “Go up, you baldhead!” (ESV) gets used. It's not a normal term of threatening. They're basically saying “You're now going to follow your BFF in departing this earth”.

Fourth, murder doesn't become acceptable just because they're not on the same side.

At which point in the story, God intervenes to protect His servant against His enemies; a bear, which was probably in the woods for the well known reason, and didn't appreciate the disturbance, decides to demonstrate the possible consequences of excessive noise.

He could have 'protected' his servant without the mass slaughter.

It's a parable. It picks up on a number of key themes that occur throughout the OT. God looks after those of His people who are faithful. If God's people bring up their children to oppose God, it doesn't end well. It's a warning to the nation. Otherwise, nothing to see here.

It's a message that God really just likes any excuse he can think of to kill people, when he even bothers with excuses.

I know there's musicals about Joseph, about Moses, and about Jonah. I'm thinking it's time to put pen to paper on this one.

Good idea. We can even make it a children's story, the same way that we take global-scale genocide and teach kids to praise the killer in this story:



If we can make kids think that those lonely survivors of deliberate mass murder are happy and cheerful, surely we can sell this to them as well.

[Jacob(smooth)]

Yeah, about that.



Not a very NICE children's story that one... [/quote]

[Ryantology]

[Esquilax]

Some good points. In the first instance with the chap with the knife – the “punishment” is not something you deserved because of any action on your behalf. If you chose to be confronted with this chap brandishing his knife – good luck to you!

I submit to you that hell, an infinite punishment, has no corresponding finite crime through which it could be deserved; there is literally no crime I could commit that would cause me to deserve to suffer eternally, least of all the crimes I'm actually being "convicted" of here, which include being born human chronologically after Adam, and not believing in a deity for which there is no evidence. Do any of those things seem like sufficient reason to light me on fire? Would you feel comfortable doing that to me for those things?

Also, let's say I literally called out to the man from across the street and teased him, actively antagonized him: would he then be justified in stabbing me? Is there any action I could perform, save a similar act of violence, for which he would be justified in stabbing me?

If no, is there any act I could perform against god, bar literally throwing him into hell, for which he would be justified in performing such violence against me, a person who's never even interacted with him?

The car – nope they should not leave you there. You have however not prevented them from assisting you. If you reject their offer and make it impossible for them to assist, you blame them?

If someone has been in a car accident and, in their panic, they begin to flail around and prevent the medics from doing their job, they restrain the patient in order to save his life.

Oh, and incidentally, there's literally nothing I could do to prevent god from sending me to heaven; he just won't because he doesn't want to, under your scenario. So he's the ambulance driver tutting and saying "you knew the risks," not the one being actively prevented from working.

Oh, and also, also? We still feel obligated to help those attempting suicide from harming themselves, and those guys are actively preventing that help. Why is god left out of the loop, again?

So everything is somebody else’s fault but your own? Jesus has offered you help – paying with his own life so you can live. The “paramedic” has in fact already died and offered you the escape/assitance in doing so, but you refuse. Yet you blame him?

Yes, because he first rammed my car off the road so he could offer me assistance: he is the architect of the predicament he's "saving" me from.

If you forcibly amputate my leg for no reason, am I to be thankful to you when you stop the bleeding so I don't die from it?

You suggest “outside our control”. My friend, are you suggesting that it is impossible for you to accept Jesus as Saviour? Why?

Because I am rationally incapable of accepting claims for which there are no evidence simply because a figure contained within those claims threatens me while smiling beneficently.

Please do not suggest logic. There is as much logic if not more (if you dare to evaluate matters objectively) in accepting Jesus as there is claimed to exist for rejecting Him. It is an “emotional” decision (rebellion) and not intellectual at all.

There's no logic in accepting Jesus, and all the arguments you bring up for such a thing are fallacious; it is only because you've already chosen what you want to believe, that you don't see that. Furthermore, don't presume to tell me the reasons I've come to the decisions I have.

You are wrong. If you read the Bible, you will see that God sends the “good stuff” as well as calamity.

Actually? Most of the good stuff I have, I earned myself through word and deed. My family, my possessions, the traits in myself that I value, those are all things I worked toward myself. And even if I didn't, the balance would still be tipped toward the bad things, because hell is infinite, while this world is not, so... still immoral.

Oh, and you would first have to demonstrate that the bible is true, which you have not done.

He did not “lift a finger” is obviously incorrect as He died for the sins of those that believe in Him – which He offers freely- without having to “earn” it.

He set up a system which is immoral, and then offered a loophole through that system, all the while tarting up the nothing he actually had to do as some supreme sacrifice: if you die and then all of that is immediately reversed so that you become god, how is that a sacrifice? Oh, and my sacrifice, which will actually stick, and be infinite and not finite, is greater than Jesus'.

Oh, and also, you haven't demonstrated Jesus did anything, either.

Place your trust in Jesus, let go of wanting to be in control, repent of your sins and live a holy life. It is not that easy and will open you up to ridicule etc.

Don't preach, Mister Passive Aggressive.

Consider the message from qôheleth in Ecclesiates. This life is like a puff of smoke and “chasing after wind”. “All is vanity” yet we fret and continue as if this life has any real meaning in itself. Where is the late Mr Mandela? What does he have for all his labour in this world? A country full of crime, corruption, maladministration etc.?
Yet there is beauty, courage honour as well even in poor townships, forests, streams. But this will all pass away – as we all do.

Still not big on demonstrating your religious claims, are you?

[Brakeman]

Also, let's say I literally called out to the man from across the street and teased him, actively antagonized him: would he then be justified in stabbing me? Is there any action I could perform, save a similar act of violence, for which he would be justified in stabbing me?

If no, is there any act I could perform against god, bar literally throwing him into hell, for which he would be justified in performing such violence against me, a person who's never even interacted with him?

Actually, the comparison isn't sufficient, a neighbor of yours is a competitor to you, he competes for scarce resources and actually benefits in some ways from your demise, (maybe he wants your wife?), but god doesn't.

God is claimed to love us, even as his children. so the more apt comparison would be "is there any act of non-worship that doesn't involve any impossible violence, that would compel a good loving parent to stab their skeptical children?"

Unless..
http://www.cnn.com/2014/01/19/justice/ma...sm-deaths/

"A Maryland mother stabbed two of her children to death and wounded two others while attempting an exorcism, authorities said.

Zakieya L. Avery, 28, was charged Saturday with two counts of first-degree murder and two counts of attempted first-degree murder, Montgomery County Police said in a statement.

A second woman, who was briefly hospitalized after the incident, was also charged in the two deaths. Police believe she is not related to the family, but lived at the same residence in Germantown.

Norell Harris, 1, and his sister, Zyana Harris, 2, suffered fatal stab wounds while their siblings, ages 5 and 8, were hospitalized with injuries, authorities said."

[Vicki Q]

Nobody lives their lives under the assumption that Hansel and Gretel represent the real world in any way.

I don't live my life on the assumption this came from a real incident. It's a story.

I know you get a lot of fundies here, and you probably get used to debate based on different assumptions. So can I make this clear: No-one died. It's a story. People die in stories all the time. No-one gets upset.

No, it's not about baldness. It's about a god who really has a holy boner for disproportionate retribution.

There was no retribution. No-one real got hurt. It's a story.

Murder doesn't become acceptable just because they weren't all actual children.

There was no murder. No-one died. It's a story.

murder doesn't become acceptable just because they're not on the same side.

There was no murder. It's a story.

He could have 'protected' his servant without the mass slaughter.

There was no mass slaughter. It's a story.

It's a message that God really just likes any excuse he can think of to kill people, when he even bothers with excuses.

No-one died. It's a story.

..we take global-scale genocide and teach kids to praise the killer in this story:

The story of Noah. Ah, that's different.

Wait. My mistake. It's not different. No-one died. It's a story. Although a well travelled one. http://www.telegraph.co.uk/culture/books...Flood.html

Note the lack of moral outrage in the report, BTW. It's a story. People die in stories all the time. Vogon highways, and that.


The Elisha story's about someone close to God who ended up being on the wrong side of a juvenile lynch mob. They got the tables turned on them. Like a message in seaside rock, it's part of a constant message in the OT- God will provide for those who work with Him. On the other hand, those who oppose Him will pay a price.

This is one of the issues the Early Church had to face up to- that the person closest to God ended up dying. It wasn't supposed to be like that at all. Something must have shocked them into the radically different narrative.

But that's for another day.