Faith and Religion.

[Edwardo Piet]

I'd suggest maybe that FAITH is the real, - and bigger - enemy.

I'd say a good example of this is that Stalin did all the evil he did partly because he had a kind of anti-religious faith type delusion. For example - all the thought policing that he did.

I very well know that faith is much, much more common when part of religion, or the religious.

But I'd say considering atleast SOME people are influenced by faith, when they're not religious - whether thats anti-religious faith or not - I'd say that is still significant enough to make faith a bigger enemy than Religion itself, because faith after all, is what drives religion.

You can CERTAINLY be an atheist without faith. But you can't be religious without faith.

And as I said...if even Stalin is the only deeply atheist who was driven by faith, (i'd say he was a pseudo-atheist, not a true atheist) thats enough to show I'd say that the bigger enemy is faith.

Finally I'll repeat: You can CERTAINLY be an atheist without faith. But you can't be religious without faith.

[Kyuuketsuki]

I think what you're talking about is ideology.

Dawkins said that, "good people do good things, bad people do bad things but it takes religion to make good people do bad things"

He was wrong in two respects ... first of all religion is just a thing (a tool if you like and there are others, not a good one but you get the idea) and it is possible for religion to make bad people do good things; secondly he was wrong because (as you say above) it isn't only religion that has faith (and I don't mean the faith born out of reason and evidence) so do other doctrines such as communism and fascism. People do bad things in the name of ideological beliefs as well ... was Hitler's hatred of the Jews religion based or inspired? Almost certainly, but that can't necessarily be argued for the whole of the Nazi party or its agents but what is certain is that they had faith, faith in their Nazi party, faith in the belief that they were the Aryan super race, faith that they would eventually stand tall and proud and ruling a world.

So Dawkins statement should, IMO, read, "good people do good things, bad people do bad things but it takes an ideology (irrational faith) to make good people do bad things "

Kyu

[ManofGOD]

I'd suggest maybe that FAITH is the real, - and bigger - enemy.

I'd say a good example of this is that Stalin did all the evil he did partly because he had a kind of anti-religious faith type delusion. For example - all the thought policing that he did.

I very well know that faith is much, much more common when part of religion, or the religious.

But I'd say considering atleast SOME people are influenced by faith, when they're not religious - whether thats anti-religious faith or not - I'd say that is still significant enough to make faith a bigger enemy than Religion itself, because faith after all, is what drives religion.

You can CERTAINLY be an atheist without faith. But you can't be religious without faith.

And as I said...if even Stalin is the only deeply atheist who was driven by faith, (i'd say he was a pseudo-atheist, not a true atheist) thats enough to show I'd say that the bigger enemy is faith.

Finally I'll repeat: You can CERTAINLY be an atheist without faith. But you can't be religious without faith.

The righteous shall live by faith.

[Ace Otana]

Must always remember. beliefs/faith CANNOT change reality. Only your perception of the world around you.

You can say "righteous" BUT this does not mean your right. Reality will not change due to a tiny unimportant biological self aware supersitious lifeform.

[Edwardo Piet]

I'd suggest maybe that FAITH is the real, - and bigger - enemy.

I'd say a good example of this is that Stalin did all the evil he did partly because he had a kind of anti-religious faith type delusion. For example - all the thought policing that he did.

I very well know that faith is much, much more common when part of religion, or the religious.

But I'd say considering atleast SOME people are influenced by faith, when they're not religious - whether thats anti-religious faith or not - I'd say that is still significant enough to make faith a bigger enemy than Religion itself, because faith after all, is what drives religion.

You can CERTAINLY be an atheist without faith. But you can't be religious without faith.

And as I said...if even Stalin is the only deeply atheist who was driven by faith, (i'd say he was a pseudo-atheist, not a true atheist) thats enough to show I'd say that the bigger enemy is faith.

Finally I'll repeat: You can CERTAINLY be an atheist without faith. But you can't be religious without faith.

The righteous shall live by faith.

I doubt it.

I think what you're talking about is ideology.

Dawkins said that, "good people do good things, bad people do bad things but it takes religion to make good people do bad things"

He was wrong in two respects ... first of all religion is just a thing (a tool if you like and there are others, not a good one but you get the idea) and it is possible for religion to make bad people do good things; secondly he was wrong because (as you say above) it isn't only religion that has faith (and I don't mean the faith born out of reason and evidence) so do other doctrines such as communism and fascism. People do bad things in the name of ideological beliefs as well ... was Hitler's hatred of the Jews religion based or inspired? Almost certainly, but that can't necessarily be argued for the whole of the Nazi party or its agents but what is certain is that they had faith, faith in their Nazi party, faith in the belief that they were the Aryan super race, faith that they would eventually stand tall and proud and ruling a world.

So Dawkins statement should, IMO, read, "good people do good things, bad people do bad things but it takes an ideology (irrational faith) to make good people do bad things "

Kyu

Well those words weren't Dawkins' originally - he was quoting - and, if I remember correctly - the quote was from Steven Weinberg the American Nobel prize winning Physicist...
Also I'd say this is somewhat a semantic thing; Dawkins has also - (pretty much, I'm paraphrasing here) - said that the 'thought police', anti-religious faith, or any other form of faith is KIND OF a religion in the sense that it controls people like religion.
I guess its just a sort of pseudo-religion.
So I'd say yes its a semantic thing. I'd say faith is what drives religion - and also what drives superstition and a lot of pseudo-science - so I'd say faith is the bigger/real enemy.
Basically: You can't just treat the symptoms, you've got to treat the cause, - the core of the problem.

[Kyuuketsuki]

Basically: You can't just treat the symptoms, you've got to treat the cause, - the core of the problem.

Agreed

Kyu

[Edwardo Piet]

Furthermore, I'd basically put it without this: If faith and religion are not the same, as it appears 100% of people who have voted on this topic have agreed is true, if you include me. No one has voted for option 3 yet. If you can see that, consider this: You can have faith without religion, but you cannot have religion without faith (unless you include Einstein and similar cases, as Einstein said he was a deeply religious non-believer. But then thats not a bad thing is it? So how is religion a bigger problem than faith?).

[leo-rcc]

Because faith is a much broader spectrum than Religion is. You are placing faith in a theistic context, while there are many more no-theistic things you can take on faith.

I have faith in the economy stabilizing again, and if more people do so, the sooner the economy does stabilize again.
I have faith that the US will choose the right person for president this time.
I have faith that my watch will be repaired before I go on holiday although that is by no means certain.

Non of these I would call bad.

[Edwardo Piet]

Because faith is a much broader spectrum than Religion is. You are placing faith in a theistic context, while there are many more no-theistic things you can take on faith.

I have faith in the economy stabilizing again, and if more people do so, the sooner the economy does stabilize again.
I have faith that the US will choose the right person for president this time.
I have faith that my watch will be repaired before I go on holiday although that is by no means certain.

Non of these I would call bad.

That's belief or trust in my opinion, not faith. Faith is belief or trust without evidence, Faith is irrational and illogical and faith is blind.
Faith isn't a synonym for trust or belief in my opinion. There is a difference.
For a start faith includes pseudosciences such as 'the law of attraction' and astrology, whereas some would call them religions, a lot wouldn't.

[leo-rcc]

No, faith, belief, trust, it is all without the support of evidence, other than perhaps past experience.

Main Entry:
1faith Listen to the pronunciation of 1faith
Pronunciation:
\ˈfāth\
Function:
noun
Inflected Form(s):
plural faiths Listen to the pronunciation of faiths \ˈfāths, sometimes ˈfāthz\
Etymology:
Middle English feith, from Anglo-French feid, fei, from Latin fides; akin to Latin fidere to trust — more at bide
Date:
13th century

1 a: allegiance to duty or a person : loyalty b (1): fidelity to one's promises (2): sincerity of intentions2 a (1): belief and trust in and loyalty to God (2): belief in the traditional doctrines of a religion b (1): firm belief in something for which there is no proof (2): complete trust3: something that is believed especially with strong conviction ; especially : a system of religious beliefs <the Protestant faith>
synonyms see belief
— on faith
: without question <took everything he said on faith>

Faith is a belief in the trustworthiness of an idea. Formal usage of the word "faith" is usually reserved for concepts of religion, as in theology, where it almost universally refers to a trusting belief in a transcendent reality, or else in a Supreme Being and said being's role in the order of transcendent, spiritual things.

Informal usage of the word "faith" can be quite broad, and may be used standardly in place of either as "trust," "belief," or "hope". For example, the word "faith" can refer to a religion itself or to religion in general. (For informal uses of the word "faith", see Faith (word)). As with "trust," faith involves a concept of future events or outcomes.