God doesn't follow the Golden Rule

[Darkstar]

God knows the future right? God knows who's going to hell.

Knowing is not in any way predestination. Right?

GC

Actually, knowing the future would be predestination. The only way one can know the future is if the future is set in stone, and the only way that can be is if whatever actions must be taken to achieve this known and guaranteed future are certain to happen (i.e. predestined to happen).

Also, if god created the universe, he would know what its future would be depending on his actions, so it is logical to conclude that he knew that if he created the universe in a certain way and interfered in its affairs in a certain way, this would cause a specific future to occur with certainty. But if he knew which future would occur, then he would also know how he would eventually intervene in the universe to bring about that particular future, and he would not be able to change these actions, thus making him predestined. And if he didn't know what the future would be, then he wouldn't be omniscient (even if he knows all possible futures, if he doesn't know which one will come to pass, he doesn't know everything).

[Chad32]

Nobody chose hell. No one made him create it, or mandate that people who disagree with him go to a place of suffering. This is blackmail. It's like people choosing to burn alive in a bonfire I made because they refused to worship me. Or they chose to have their business ransacked and burned because they didn't pay their protection money.

We don't send ourselves to hell because we're not the ones who set this contrived system up. Not only that but there's a serious lack of evidence. If my dad wanted me to do something, he made damn sure I knew everything I needed t know. He didn't give me a diary he wrote, or tell someone else to tell me what he wanted. He walked over and told me in person.

No one makes God do anything, God created hell to punish the sinful, He wasn't going to allow the sinful into His heaven. There is no blackmail, it's your excuse to reject God, which by the way your chose to spend eternity away from Him, thus you choose hell.
You have no authority to judge someone in that capacity, so you might as well put out your bonfire. No one has the right to demand protection money, they have no authority over a business owner.
God is creator and in that capacity has the right, period.
Your dad also punished you if you didn't do what he told you, that was his right through his authority over you.

GC

You're right. No one made god do it. So he has no excuse for doing it, and punishing someone eternally for limited sin is wrong on multiple levels. Just because someone made something doesn't give them all right to abuse it. That's why we have child protection laws. That's why people would be looked down on for building houses just to burn them down.

Maybe my dad was justified in his punishments, but there's never any debate over whether or not my dad exists, or what exactly he wants me to do. also more importantly, he's not still beating me with a belt for getting an F on my report card. He does not torture me daily because I refuse to let him run my life.

God is often spoken of as a parent, but a parent's job is to eventually alow their children to have lives of their own where they're independant. Your deity just wants slaves. If he wants a relationship with me, he has to meet me half way. That's the only way that healthy relationships work.

No one has a right to own any free thinking being. Be it natural or supernatural. Most civilized countries have grown out of that. Inclusing USA, which the religious often say is a christian nation. A recent thread about people getting sick from eating grass is a good example of the harmful mentality that religion imposes on people. When you can convince an adult to do something they know is harmful to them is when your beliefs need a serious reevaluation.

[Godscreated]

---

No one makes God do anything, God created hell to punish the sinful, He wasn't going to allow the sinful into His heaven. There is no blackmail, it's your excuse to reject God, which by the way your chose to spend eternity away from Him, thus you choose hell.
You have no authority to judge someone in that capacity, so you might as well put out your bonfire. No one has the right to demand protection money, they have no authority over a business owner.
God is creator and in that capacity has the right, period.
Your dad also punished you if you didn't do what he told you, that was his right through his authority over you.

GC

---

You're right. No one made god do it. So he has no excuse for doing it, and punishing someone eternally for limited sin is wrong on multiple levels.

God's never made an excuse for creating hell, He has explained what it's for and why people will wind-up there. Even one sin is not limited if not forgiven by God, the unforgiven sin is eternal and only an eternal punishment can be a proper punishment.

Just because someone made something doesn't give them all right to abuse it. That's why we have child protection laws. That's why people would be looked down on for building houses just to burn them down.

God want be abusing hell, once everything is said and done at the end of time no one in heaven will ever know where hell is, nor will they care. God and His people will live on forever in the wonders of a new universe, unpolluted by sin. You have a completely wrong view of hell and it's purpose.

Maybe my dad was justified in his punishments, but there's never any debate over whether or not my dad exists, or what exactly he wants me to do. also more importantly, he's not still beating me with a belt for getting an F on my report card. He does not torture me daily because I refuse to let him run my life.

There's no debate among believers if God is real, we know He is and we know His promises, we also know what God wants use to do. You can argue against His promises all you want, it want make a difference, God has promised and so it will be. A person can go kicking and screaming all the way to hell, it want change a thing, the one thing they will know for sure is that justice was served and they were wrong. God doesn't torture anyone, you can through that up all you want, it will never make God a torturer. Actually your punishment will be dealt out by your own self.

God is often spoken of as a parent, but a parent's job is to eventually alow their children to have lives of their own where they're independant. Your deity just wants slaves. If he wants a relationship with me, he has to meet me half way. That's the only way that healthy relationships work.

You have that backwards, parents are to model themselves from God's examples. God is was and always be the first parent. If God desired slaves you would be one at this moment, doing exactly what an omnipotent being desired you to do, no choices in your life.
You can not even come to God till He calls you, so God actually comes all the way to you, no one seeks God on their own. So if you're looking for a healthy relationship then what better than one where Your Friend is always with you.

No one has a right to own any free thinking being. Be it natural or supernatural. Most civilized countries have grown out of that. Inclusing USA, which the religious often say is a christian nation. A recent thread about people getting sick from eating grass is a good example of the harmful mentality that religion imposes on people. When you can convince an adult to do something they know is harmful to them is when your beliefs need a serious reevaluation.

So you think you can make up your own rules for God and His creation.
The USA was a Christian nation, I have my doubts now, but the the scriptures foretell of a world pulling away from God, just as happened in Noah's day.
I did not see anything about people eating grass so I can't comment on that happening. What I can say is that God punished a king and the king grazed like a cow for several years. People should pay close attention to the scriptures before they claim stuff.

GC

---

Knowing is not in any way predestination. Right?

GC

Actually, knowing the future would be predestination. The only way one can know the future is if the future is set in stone, and the only way that can be is if whatever actions must be taken to achieve this known and guaranteed future are certain to happen (i.e. predestined to happen).

Also, if god created the universe, he would know what its future would be depending on his actions, so it is logical to conclude that he knew that if he created the universe in a certain way and interfered in its affairs in a certain way, this would cause a specific future to occur with certainty. But if he knew which future would occur, then he would also know how he would eventually intervene in the universe to bring about that particular future, and he would not be able to change these actions, thus making him predestined. And if he didn't know what the future would be, then he wouldn't be omniscient (even if he knows all possible futures, if he doesn't know which one will come to pass, he doesn't know everything).

You're just being ridiculous, only if God made you choose your finial destination would it be considered predestination.

GC

[Zen Badger]

You have no evidence that that is the case.

That is merely wishful thinking on your part.

Your same ol' pat answer, it's gotten boring to say the least, please try to be more mature or at least creative.

Maybe when you start posting something of substance instead of the same old boring and repetitive drivel over and over again.

Firstly, try proving your particular god actually exists.

Contrary to what you appear to think, we don't accept his existence as a given.

[Ryantology]

You're just being ridiculous, only if God made you choose your finial destination would it be considered predestination.

God is letting us choose which flagpole we want to climb?

Why did I even make that joke? You type like you didn't make it out of third grade. You don't have the vocabulary to get it.

[Chad32]

You're right. No one made god do it. So he has no excuse for doing it, and punishing someone eternally for limited sin is wrong on multiple levels.

God's never made an excuse for creating hell, He has explained what it's for and why people will wind-up there. Even one sin is not limited if not forgiven by God, the unforgiven sin is eternal and only an eternal punishment can be a proper punishment.

And that's why I think he's kind of a psycho. Because he made something like that just out of spite for those who don't unquestioningly obey him.

Just because someone made something doesn't give them all right to abuse it. That's why we have child protection laws. That's why people would be looked down on for building houses just to burn them down.

God want be abusing hell, once everything is said and done at the end of time no one in heaven will ever know where hell is, nor will they care. God and His people will live on forever in the wonders of a new universe, unpolluted by sin. You have a completely wrong view of hell and it's purpose.

Hell is an abuse in itsself. I really don't think I have a worng view of eternal punishment for mere decades of sins. Now I've heard there's a verse that just says the fire will destroy the soul and it just won't exist anymore. That I'd be fine with, since aside from the fire part, cessasion os existence is what atheists believe will happen anyway. It's just that this idea won't get them into the church, so the idea of torture was added.

Also I'm glad to know people will be mind raped in heaven. Fun stuff. Just wipe clean their identity so it conforms to what Yahweh wants. Real peachy.

Maybe my dad was justified in his punishments, but there's never any debate over whether or not my dad exists, or what exactly he wants me to do. also more importantly, he's not still beating me with a belt for getting an F on my report card. He does not torture me daily because I refuse to let him run my life.

There's no debate among believers if God is real, we know He is and we know His promises, we also know what God wants use to do. You can argue against His promises all you want, it want make a difference, God has promised and so it will be. A person can go kicking and screaming all the way to hell, it want change a thing, the one thing they will know for sure is that justice was served and they were wrong. God doesn't torture anyone, you can through that up all you want, it will never make God a torturer. Actually your punishment will be dealt out by your own self.

There are three main branches of people that believe in Yahweh: christians, jews, and muslims. There are thousands, if not tens of thousands, of denominations of christianity alone. You people have no idea what he wants, if he exists at all. Don't kid yourselves.

God is often spoken of as a parent, but a parent's job is to eventually alow their children to have lives of their own where they're independant. Your deity just wants slaves. If he wants a relationship with me, he has to meet me half way. That's the only way that healthy relationships work.

You have that backwards, parents are to model themselves from God's examples. God is was and always be the first parent. If God desired slaves you would be one at this moment, doing exactly what an omnipotent being desired you to do, no choices in your life.
You can not even come to God till He calls you, so God actually comes all the way to you, no one seeks God on their own. So if you're looking for a healthy relationship then what better than one where Your Friend is always with you.

Yahweh didn't come all the way to me. Otherwise I wouldn't have left the church. He is not always with me. The fact that I can't prove he exists tells me he isn't here.

No one has a right to own any free thinking being. Be it natural or supernatural. Most civilized countries have grown out of that. Inclusing USA, which the religious often say is a christian nation. A recent thread about people getting sick from eating grass is a good example of the harmful mentality that religion imposes on people. When you can convince an adult to do something they know is harmful to them is when your beliefs need a serious reevaluation.

So you think you can make up your own rules for God and His creation.
The USA was a Christian nation, I have my doubts now, but the the scriptures foretell of a world pulling away from God, just as happened in Noah's day.
I did not see anything about people eating grass so I can't comment on that happening. What I can say is that God punished a king and the king grazed like a cow for several years. People should pay close attention to the scriptures before they claim stuff.

I don't make up my own rules for Yahweh. I take my personal experiences in this world, and what people have told me, to shape my reality, and have found many things in the bible to be wrong. This country has found things in the bible to be wrong, since it encourages equality, freedom of speach and religion, and criminalizes slavery and genocide based on religious beliefs. Human morality is the only thing I have. It's the only thing anyone has, whether you get it from personal experience, other people, or books. That's why a lot of what Yahweh said conforms to contemporary views of the world at the time. Making it ok to force a woman to marry her rapist, instead of instituting a society where women are treated equally and not be valued strictly on whether or not they're still virgins.

GC

---

Actually, knowing the future would be predestination. The only way one can know the future is if the future is set in stone, and the only way that can be is if whatever actions must be taken to achieve this known and guaranteed future are certain to happen (i.e. predestined to happen).

Also, if god created the universe, he would know what its future would be depending on his actions, so it is logical to conclude that he knew that if he created the universe in a certain way and interfered in its affairs in a certain way, this would cause a specific future to occur with certainty. But if he knew which future would occur, then he would also know how he would eventually intervene in the universe to bring about that particular future, and he would not be able to change these actions, thus making him predestined. And if he didn't know what the future would be, then he wouldn't be omniscient (even if he knows all possible futures, if he doesn't know which one will come to pass, he doesn't know everything).

You're just being ridiculous, only if God made you choose your finial destination would it be considered predestination.

GC
[/quote]

[truthBtold]

God's never made an excuse for creating hell, He has explained what it's for and why people will wind-up there. Even one sin is not limited if not forgiven by God, the unforgiven sin is eternal and only an eternal punishment can be a proper punishment.

And that's why I think he's kind of a psycho. Because he made something like that just out of spite for those who don't unquestioningly obey him.

Just because someone made something doesn't give them all right to abuse it. That's why we have child protection laws. That's why people would be looked down on for building houses just to burn them down.

God want be abusing hell, once everything is said and done at the end of time no one in heaven will ever know where hell is, nor will they care. God and His people will live on forever in the wonders of a new universe, unpolluted by sin. You have a completely wrong view of hell and it's purpose.

Hell is an abuse in itsself. I really don't think I have a worng view of eternal punishment for mere decades of sins. Now I've heard there's a verse that just says the fire will destroy the soul and it just won't exist anymore. That I'd be fine with, since aside from the fire part, cessasion os existence is what atheists believe will happen anyway. It's just that this idea won't get them into the church, so the idea of torture was added.

Also I'm glad to know people will be mind raped in heaven. Fun stuff. Just wipe clean their identity so it conforms to what Yahweh wants. Real peachy.

Maybe my dad was justified in his punishments, but there's never any debate over whether or not my dad exists, or what exactly he wants me to do. also more importantly, he's not still beating me with a belt for getting an F on my report card. He does not torture me daily because I refuse to let him run my life.

There's no debate among believers if God is real, we know He is and we know His promises, we also know what God wants use to do. You can argue against His promises all you want, it want make a difference, God has promised and so it will be. A person can go kicking and screaming all the way to hell, it want change a thing, the one thing they will know for sure is that justice was served and they were wrong. God doesn't torture anyone, you can through that up all you want, it will never make God a torturer. Actually your punishment will be dealt out by your own self.

There are three main branches of people that believe in Yahweh: christians, jews, and muslims. There are thousands, if not tens of thousands, of denominations of christianity alone. You people have no idea what he wants, if he exists at all. Don't kid yourselves.

God is often spoken of as a parent, but a parent's job is to eventually alow their children to have lives of their own where they're independant. Your deity just wants slaves. If he wants a relationship with me, he has to meet me half way. That's the only way that healthy relationships work.

You have that backwards, parents are to model themselves from God's examples. God is was and always be the first parent. If God desired slaves you would be one at this moment, doing exactly what an omnipotent being desired you to do, no choices in your life.
You can not even come to God till He calls you, so God actually comes all the way to you, no one seeks God on their own. So if you're looking for a healthy relationship then what better than one where Your Friend is always with you.

Yahweh didn't come all the way to me. Otherwise I wouldn't have left the church. He is not always with me. The fact that I can't prove he exists tells me he isn't here.

No one has a right to own any free thinking being. Be it natural or supernatural. Most civilized countries have grown out of that. Inclusing USA, which the religious often say is a christian nation. A recent thread about people getting sick from eating grass is a good example of the harmful mentality that religion imposes on people. When you can convince an adult to do something they know is harmful to them is when your beliefs need a serious reevaluation.

So you think you can make up your own rules for God and His creation.
The USA was a Christian nation, I have my doubts now, but the the scriptures foretell of a world pulling away from God, just as happened in Noah's day.
I did not see anything about people eating grass so I can't comment on that happening. What I can say is that God punished a king and the king grazed like a cow for several years. People should pay close attention to the scriptures before they claim stuff.

I don't make up my own rules for Yahweh. I take my personal experiences in this world, and what people have told me, to shape my reality, and have found many things in the bible to be wrong. This country has found things in the bible to be wrong, since it encourages equality, freedom of speach and religion, and criminalizes slavery and genocide based on religious beliefs. Human morality is the only thing I have. It's the only thing anyone has, whether you get it from personal experience, other people, or books. That's why a lot of what Yahweh said conforms to contemporary views of the world at the time. Making it ok to force a woman to marry her rapist, instead of instituting a society where women are treated equally and not be valued strictly on whether or not they're still virgins.

GC

---

Actually, knowing the future would be predestination. The only way one can know the future is if the future is set in stone, and the only way that can be is if whatever actions must be taken to achieve this known and guaranteed future are certain to happen (i.e. predestined to happen).

Also, if god created the universe, he would know what its future would be depending on his actions, so it is logical to conclude that he knew that if he created the universe in a certain way and interfered in its affairs in a certain way, this would cause a specific future to occur with certainty. But if he knew which future would occur, then he would also know how he would eventually intervene in the universe to bring about that particular future, and he would not be able to change these actions, thus making him predestined. And if he didn't know what the future would be, then he wouldn't be omniscient (even if he knows all possible futures, if he doesn't know which one will come to pass, he doesn't know everything).

You're just being ridiculous, only if God made you choose your finial destination would it be considered predestination.

GC

[/quote]

If I told u god wants me to be an atheist, would u believe me?

[Chad32]

Your deity is a failure. He wants everyone to come to heaven, yet most of the world is going to hell. Many of which simply because they were raised in countries where christianity isn't dominant. Plus the majority of people who WANT to follow him are going to hell because of misinterpretations within the scriptures. Scriptures which weren't even written until long after people have been roaming the world. Whether you believe the world is millions of years old, or 6-10,000 years old, that means there was no record of his existence until about 3,000 years ago. His competence is lacking.

[Godscreated]

I really feel sorry for both of you, people with that much hate... well you'll have understanding one of these days.

GC

[Chad32]

I really feel sorry for both of you, people with that much hate... well you'll have understanding one of these days.

GC

Oh, I don't really have much hate. Mostly because I don't think he exists. I mean I get riled up by fictional characters sometimes. There's this guy named Lheu Brenin in Lord of the Rings Online that really ticked me off when he asked me to go around helping people against Saruman, and when I came back and he found out Saruman was currently winning, he turned on me. I didn't even get the opportunity to defeat him.

But he's just a character in a video game. I don't stew in any hatred for the guy. Same way with Yahweh. If he was real, I'd hate him because he's a narcissistic psychopath that lies about caring for his creation when it should be obvious looking from the outside that he only cares about himself. Still, there's no evidence that he exists, so I don't stress too much. I just go on these tangents because I feel like it's a sham and detrimental to our species.

If you really insist on worshiping a deity, I'd say pick a more pleasant one. Or at least stop saying Yahweh is perfectly good, just, merciful, and loving, because judging from his actions he just isn't. Maybe he's got some good lessons and ideas, and that's fine, but the guy has issues.