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RE: How can a Christian reject part of the Bible and still call themselves a Christian?
October 9, 2016 at 4:19 am
I am reminded of a Mormon apologist at one time asserting that if evidence was produced that showed Joseph Smith to have been convicted of 'money digging' then Mormonism would be proven to be a false religion.
And then proof of Joseph Smith's money digging conviction was produced.
So, did that apologist then lead the call for dismantling Mormonism ??
LOL, well of course not.
The granting of a pardon is an imputation of guilt, and the acceptance a confession of it.
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RE: How can a Christian reject part of the Bible and still call themselves a Christian?
October 9, 2016 at 11:51 am
(October 9, 2016 at 4:19 am)vorlon13 Wrote: I am reminded of a Mormon apologist at one time asserting that if evidence was produced that showed Joseph Smith to have been convicted of 'money digging' then Mormonism would be proven to be a false religion.
And then proof of Joseph Smith's money digging conviction was produced.
So, did that apologist then lead the call for dismantling Mormonism ??
LOL, well of course not.
Proving that a certain church group is allowing divorce proves that Jesus is wrong?
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RE: How can a Christian reject part of the Bible and still call themselves a Christian?
October 9, 2016 at 9:13 pm
No,
it demonstrates their own hubris
The granting of a pardon is an imputation of guilt, and the acceptance a confession of it.
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RE: How can a Christian reject part of the Bible and still call themselves a Christian?
October 10, 2016 at 2:05 pm
(This post was last modified: October 10, 2016 at 3:59 pm by Simon Moon.)
(October 8, 2016 at 6:44 pm)Lek Wrote: (October 8, 2016 at 3:49 pm)Simon Moon Wrote: If a god were to speak to me, it would have to do it in such a way as to not be able to be explained by something natural. And any god worth that definition would, would know how to do that.
Believing a god exists, and following said god are 2 different things. If the god was the one depicted in the Bible, and the Bible is an accurate description of his behavior and actions, I would hope that my morality would be strong enough not to follow him.
Okay. I was trying to determine whether or not you are still open to God. It seems you are no longer open to him because you've placed conditions on his revelation to you. Again I'm not trying to make a judgement about whether you're right or wrong, but rather to determine whether or not you're truly open to God's revelation.
I can guarantee that I am more open to your god demonstrating his existence to me, than you are to the possibility of other gods demonstrating their existence to you.
While I was still a theist, I was wide open to god demonstrating his existence to me. I was imploring such a demonstration. And no, at that time, I did not put conditions on his demonstrating his existence.
It seems, every time another theist describes their experience of god demonstrating his existence, it is indistinguishable from: misinterpretation of a natural brain state, hallucination, wishful thinking, warm fuzzy feelings while singing hymns in church, etc.
There was a time when gods were appearing to thousands, or more, humans on a consistent basis. It seemed easy to believe, because god demonstrated himself in an obvious ways. Yet now, I have the burden of having to be convinced for bad reasons (contradictory ancient texts, flawed philosophical arguments, personal revelation, "look at the trees"). And this seems to be a purposeful state of affairs created by your god. Forcing me to poorly use the brain that he gave me. Letting me discover critical thinking and skepticism, then punishing me when I correctly apply these tools to the god claim.
In other words, he gave me a brain, that is unable to be gullible, yet I have to be gullible to believe he exists.
You'd believe if you just opened your heart" is a terrible argument for religion. It's basically saying, "If you bias yourself enough, you can convince yourself that this is true." If religion were true, people wouldn't need faith to believe it -- it would be supported by good evidence.
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RE: How can a Christian reject part of the Bible and still call themselves a Christian?
October 10, 2016 at 2:48 pm
As for my sensitivity to scripture cherry picking;
I've encountered quite a few religious folks since getting out of high school and coming out as gay. So from the 70s on I've heard Leviticus and some other books of the Bible used to justify all manner of draconian solutions to the gay question in America. I'm old enough to remember "Kill a queer for Christ" t-shirts and the Anita Bryant Save Our Children groups openly calling for concentration camps.
Well, just in Leviticus, there are over 600 of those rules, and for some reason, they almost all are universally ignored except the paltry few on the men lying with men ones.
So, yeah, I'm wondering why it's any of Leviticus instead of all of it. And the answer ALWAYS comes down to it's some person deciding on the selective fucking enforcement. Well, any person deciding operative vs inoperative parts of the bible better have some kind of blazing proof he is so authorized. God can carve his name in big letters on the moon for all of us to see, or something equally convincing.
An then if that proof is lacking, the default is going to be all of Leviticus applying to all of the faithful all of the time everywhere.
The granting of a pardon is an imputation of guilt, and the acceptance a confession of it.
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RE: How can a Christian reject part of the Bible and still call themselves a Christian?
October 10, 2016 at 4:30 pm
(October 10, 2016 at 2:48 pm)vorlon13 Wrote: As for my sensitivity to scripture cherry picking;
I've encountered quite a few religious folks since getting out of high school and coming out as gay. So from the 70s on I've heard Leviticus and some other books of the Bible used to justify all manner of draconian solutions to the gay question in America. I'm old enough to remember "Kill a queer for Christ" t-shirts and the Anita Bryant Save Our Children groups openly calling for concentration camps.
Well, just in Leviticus, there are over 600 of those rules, and for some reason, they almost all are universally ignored except the paltry few on the men lying with men ones.
So, yeah, I'm wondering why it's any of Leviticus instead of all of it. And the answer ALWAYS comes down to it's some person deciding on the selective fucking enforcement. Well, any person deciding operative vs inoperative parts of the bible better have some kind of blazing proof he is so authorized. God can carve his name in big letters on the moon for all of us to see, or something equally convincing.
An then if that proof is lacking, the default is going to be all of Leviticus applying to all of the faithful all of the time everywhere.
Problem is that the bible declares that we are no longer the law presented in Leviticus.
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RE: How can a Christian reject part of the Bible and still call themselves a Christian?
October 10, 2016 at 4:31 pm
(This post was last modified: October 10, 2016 at 4:38 pm by Lek.)
.............
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RE: How can a Christian reject part of the Bible and still call themselves a Christian?
October 10, 2016 at 4:33 pm
(This post was last modified: October 10, 2016 at 4:40 pm by Lek.)
(October 10, 2016 at 4:31 pm)Lek Wrote: (October 10, 2016 at 2:05 pm)Simon Moon Wrote: I can guarantee that I am more open to your god demonstrating his existence to me, than you are to the possibility of other gods demonstrating their existence to you.
While I was still a theist, I was wide open to god demonstrating his existence to me. I was imploring such a demonstration. And no, at that time, I did not put conditions on his demonstrating his existence.
It seems, every time another theist describes their experience of god demonstrating his existence, it is indistinguishable from: misinterpretation of a natural brain state, hallucination, wishful thinking, warm fuzzy feelings while singing hymns in church, etc.
There was a time when gods were appearing to thousands, or more, humans on a consistent basis. It seemed easy to believe, because god demonstrated himself in an obvious ways. Yet now, I have the burden of having to be convinced for bad reasons (contradictory ancient texts, flawed philosophical arguments, personal revelation, "look at the trees"). And this seems to be a purposeful state of affairs created by your god. Forcing me to poorly use the brain that he gave me. Letting me discover critical thinking and skepticism, then punishing me when I correctly apply these tools to the god claim.
In other words, he gave me a brain, that is unable to be gullible, yet I have to be gullible to believe he exists.
Okay fair enough. But it is true that you are no longer open to God's revelation to you unless it meets your conditions. I'm not specifically arguing against your opinion, but I am stating that you are no longer completely open to God's revelation.
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RE: How can a Christian reject part of the Bible and still call themselves a Christian?
October 10, 2016 at 4:38 pm
(This post was last modified: October 10, 2016 at 4:48 pm by The Grand Nudger.)
"Gods revelation" doesn't -have- to meet my conditions (whatever the hell they're supposed to be, in my case). It hardly matters. That revelation, however, is unlikely to make me a christian out of me. Can you understand and accept that without defaulting to ignorant and pious statements -about- me?
Is there room, in your world, for a man who has demonstrated -to- him...your god as-portrayed, and declines the offer made by said god...for reasons of moral turpitude?
Can you accept the fact that I would rather burn in hell than string up the better man? That I would, admittedly and without apology... do all sorts of shitty things...but not this one?
I am the Infantry. I am my country’s strength in war, her deterrent in peace. I am the heart of the fight… wherever, whenever. I carry America’s faith and honor against her enemies. I am the Queen of Battle. I am what my country expects me to be, the best trained Soldier in the world. In the race for victory, I am swift, determined, and courageous, armed with a fierce will to win. Never will I fail my country’s trust. Always I fight on…through the foe, to the objective, to triumph overall. If necessary, I will fight to my death. By my steadfast courage, I have won more than 200 years of freedom. I yield not to weakness, to hunger, to cowardice, to fatigue, to superior odds, For I am mentally tough, physically strong, and morally straight. I forsake not, my country, my mission, my comrades, my sacred duty. I am relentless. I am always there, now and forever. I AM THE INFANTRY! FOLLOW ME!
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RE: How can a Christian reject part of the Bible and still call themselves a Christian?
October 10, 2016 at 4:43 pm
(October 10, 2016 at 4:38 pm)Rhythm Wrote: "Gods revelation" doesn't -have- to meet my conditions (whatever the hell they're supposed to be, in my case). It hardly matters. That revelation, however, is unlikely to make me a christian out of me. Can you understand and accept that without defaulting to ignorant and pious statements -about- me?
You can be whatever you want to be. I just think that if you put conditions on God, then you're not open to him.
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