WLC free will and omniscience

[truthBtold]

Maybe I do not understand the logic, but if God is aware of future actions how can their be free will by the actors. Even if I were to concede this, are you saying that god does not intercede in the universe's processes, human or otherwise? It seems to me if God intercedes at all based on his foreknowledge then our will ceases to be free. His actions have removed the will of at least one or more actors, human or otherwise, and by doing so has rendered the entire argument null.

Perfect.. thats why christians are like a soft served cone...

[fr0d0]

Again, you are missing the point. Let me lay this out for you in, ah, a deductive form:

1) If God exists, his omniscience includes knowledge of future events.

2) God's knowledge of future events entails the truth of determinism, otherwise God could not have actual knowledge of what the future held.

3) If determinism is true, then libertarian free will is false.

4) God exists.

5) Therefore, libertarian free will is false. (from 1 - 4).

Which of these do you deny? You already agreed with 1). 2) and 3) are true by definition of the terms involved. Clearly you accept 4). Hence, 5) follows deductively for you but not for someone like, say, Chad who rejects 1)

1 is an unknown, as Chad has illustrated. I err on the side of future knowledge.

2 is true only in Gods realm, and not for time bound beings. It would be a fallacy to conflate the two. Determinism is some mixed up hooie.

3 is therefore nonsense

4 I believe this. I don't 'know'

5 libertarian free will exists in its own domain which is independent of a timeless perspective. It is correctly called free agency.

[MindForgedManacle]

1 is an unknown, as Chad has illustrated. I err on the side of future knowledge.

Has he? I'm fairly certain Chad has vehemently denied that God knows the future, since on his view the future does not exist. You however have just accepted that God does, on your view, know the future.

2 is true only in Gods realm, and not for time bound beings. It would be a fallacy to conflate the two. Determinism is some mixed up hooie.

You are worse than a post-modernist dude. You're saying that God knows the future of OUR temporal realm, so clearly this extends beyond his "timeless" realm. Further, for God to know OUR realm's future, the future has to exist. But if God knows the future because it's an already existing state of affairs, that entails determinism by definition.
And no, it isn't a fallacy at all, because I haven't equivocated on anything. You however are making a special pleading fallacy.

3 is therefore nonsense

And yet it is not, given the above.

4 I believe this. I don't 'know'

I didn't say you "know" it, I said it's something you accept, i.e believe to be true.

5 libertarian free will exists in its own domain which is independent of a timeless perspective. It is correctly called free agency.

Libertarian free will cannot exist if the future is known, which is what you've said repeatedly. You're saying that God has knowledge of THIS temporal realm's future states of affairs. That entails determinism and contradicts libertarian free will because then there is no "ability to do otherwise", which is the definition of libertarian free will.

[fr0d0]

Still total nonsense MF.

1. I don't "accept" that God is timeless, I err on that explanation. Please try to be accurate.

2. Yes you are absolutely trying to conflate two very different states and coming up with the wrong answer.

God created this world and is atemporal. He is not separated from it as we (temporal creatures) are separated from the atemporal realm. He manages this realm 'from' his.

You're saying that because he knows it, that must make a difference to us... which is bullshit. It absolutely doesn't. I don't know if this is strict determinism, but if it is, it's abject nonsense.

4. You said my position was that God exists. I make no such claim. Again, accuracy needed.

Free agency exists because outside of time the future can be known (no need to call that 'God'). That has no bearing WITHIN a temporal realm.

If we all knew the future, then determinism would be true. If we don't, then determinism is the bullshit it smells like.

[MindForgedManacle]

Still total nonsense MF.

1. I don't "accept" that God is timeless, I err on that explanation. Please try to be accurate.

Do you understand the meaning of the word "accept" as used here. If someone says they accept something in this way, it clearly means they "believe it to be true". You saying you "err on that explanation" is a distinction without a difference, especially since I haven't said you have certainty about that belief.

2. Yes you are absolutely trying to conflate two very different states and coming up with the wrong answer.

God created this world and is atemporal. He is not separated from it as we (temporal creatures) are separated from the atemporal realm. He manages this realm 'from' his.

You're saying that because he knows it, that must make a difference to us... which is bullshit. It absolutely doesn't. I don't know if this is strict determinism, but if it is, it's abject nonsense.

You apparently cannot follow a simple chain of reasoning. If God KNOWS the future of our realm - which you claimed - then the future of our realm is an existent state of affairs. If God knows the future states of affairs of our realm, then there is a fact of the matter about how things will be in the future, which includes what decisions we make. This is because God, on your belief that you "err on", knows what will happen, and knowledge is defined as a "justified true belief". Hence, what God knows of the future is then true by definition, otherwise he didn't know it. Given there is a fact of how the future will be beforehand, that entails determinism in your belief system.

This has NOTHING to do with "making a difference to us" in terms of how we feel about things, rather it demonstrates that you cannot hold to libertarian free will because of the beliefs about God that you "err on".

4. You said my position was that God exists. I make no such claim. Again, accuracy needed.

I said your position was something that you "believe to be true". I have been very accurate.

Free agency exists because outside of time the future can be known (no need to call that 'God'). That has no bearing WITHIN a temporal realm.

...YES it does. If the future of the TEMPORAL REALM (which is the only sensible place "future" can have meaning) can be definitively known, that entails determinism and the impossibility of libertarian free will or "free agency" as you put it.

If we all knew the future, then determinism would be true. If we don't, then determinism is the bullshit it smells like.

And yet God knows it. It makes ZERO difference if God is "in" time or not. He knows the future of our realm, including what exactly we will do, which is an impossibility if there was libertarian free will. This is essentially universally recognized by philosophers.

[fr0d0]

1. No. I don't "believe it to be true". I am slightly more convinced of it that I'm not. I am totally open to the opposing view. " Belief " would be far far too strong a word to use. I have nothing invested in the viewpoint.

2. Determinism still appears to be utter bull shit, defined as it is by you. There's an absolutely massive leap in logic you're making with no justification. The two realms are entirely separate unless you can link them. So far you fail spectacularly.

We CAN hold to free agency because WE ARE NOT GOD.

God : knows the future
Humans : don't know the future

Therefore

Determinism is true for God, or from Gods perspective
Determinism is false for humans, or from the perspective of humans

Are you thinking that my faith grants me Gods perspective? That's the only way what you're saying makes any sense to me

4. Is talking about your original statement, and not your revised one. I know you corrected that already.

[archangle]

well, if we have waves and probability. And "god" created them. Then he may be able to predict in a probability domain manor. But screw that. Who care's about what it seems to be and make up shit that we wish it is.

[Tonus]

If God operates outside of time, all of time appears at once. When is Gods fine tuning done? 'When' isn't something a timeless God is confined by. The tuning could bea constant ongoing process and our reality an infinitely morphing one.

This is kind of mind-bending, though. If god can see all of time, he can see the actions that I will take in the future, yes? And I wonder-- is it possible for me to change that course, or is it locked in? If it's locked in, then is there a formula that determines that I was going to take those actions? And who is responsible for that? If it's not locked in, how can god possibly know my future?

Predictability implies that there is some pattern or formula that guides outcomes. If there is, how does it fit with the notion of free will, or at least of choices made freely when our behavior is so predictable that all of time can exist at once and be 'read'?

[fr0d0]

The formula is you. Everything extant influences the course everything takes through time. Everything is the pattern. If God is outside of time, I think he can see the whole of it at once.

There is no such thing as free will, as we are part of the evolving pattern with everything else. What there is is free agency. Everything is free to act as it has to act, except when limited by the actions of other things it shares space time with.

[Tonus]

The formula is you.

Well, it would need to be a bit more involved than that, I think. That's like asking for a recipe for a casserole and being told "the recipe is the casserole."

Everything extant influences the course everything takes through time. Everything is the pattern. If God is outside of time, I think he can see the whole of it at once.

If he is outside of time, then maybe everything has already happened and what he is really doing is looking into the past, which happens to encompass our present and future. And then it is a question of whether he can step into the time-stream at any point and influence events, and whether that changes everything else. So that when he steps back out of time and into his own reality, he sees a completely new past.

That would actually be very cool. And if he could make me a bit less of a nebbish when I was in high school, I'd really appreciate it. Or uh, I guess I wouldn't be able to appreciate it...