Why logical arguments for Messengers don't work.

[Heat]

Alright let's assume messengers are the best form of communication, and god sent messengers.

Now if the message he sent was later misconstrued, misinterpreted, and modified, why would an almighty, all powerful, all knowing god, with the intent to convey his message to humanity so that they may have the chance to choose whether or not to believe, allow the message to be modified from the truth, and being the all powerful being he is not attempt to correct these modifications, or alter the truth he so desperately wants to convey where it has been shifted, or even attempt to have another messenger that is powerful or knowing in the same way the previous prophet/s were knowing that because of the technological advancements that he supposedly inspired or at the very least guided that now allow us to document events, so that honest and non-violent moral human beings who seek truth do not get mislead in to believing anything contrary to it, and have the chance to choose whether or not to believe in god and not be strayed from belief by using logical reasoning and simply following the evidence that he didn't provide in the first place.

[Minimalist]

However this is simply to refute an old argument I made in the past.

You're arguing with yourself, then?

[Mystic]

However this is simply to refute an old argument I made in the past.

You're arguing with yourself, then?

Yes. You should try it sometime. After all you showed the whole thing about cognitive bias.

[Minimalist]

Confirmation bias.

Over here we have FOX "news" supplying that for the right-wing.

[Neo-Scholastic]

No you misunderstood the argument.

I hate when that happens. I find it difficult to correctly interpret the nomenclature of your Islamic tradition – probably just as much as my neo-Scholastic terms may seem alien to you. I will translate your demonstration into familiar Western forms as best as I can and let you decide if I have been successful.

Given 1: God exists.

Given 2: God wills to guide Man.

Here I leaving aside for the moment the question of toward what God guides him. Also, I do not see how God “having good reason to do so” contributes to the demonstration.

Given 3: That which God wills must necessarily come to pass.

Premise 1: In order to come to pass, God must provide some means by which it may come to pass and must satisfy at least two conditions: the Divine origin of the means must be recognizable and the means must serve as a sufficiently effective guide.

Premise 4: People consider various prophets, oracles, visions, texts, signs and wonders to be Divine guides.

This seems to be the starting point for your analysis of which apparent Divine guides are if fact real Divine guides. As follows:
Prophets and oracles (Messengers) must somehow prove their authority, i.e. that their pronouncements come from a Divine source and are not their own fantasies or fabrications.

Your position seems to be that Messengers do so only by performing miracles. In the Christian tradition, miracles by themselves are not meant to compel belief, but rather seem incidental to the message of the prophet. In other words, they confirm truths already revealed. Miracles can also deceive (Matt 7:15-16 – “And many false prophets shall rise, and shall deceive many, for there shall arise false ‘Christs’ and false prophets performing great signs and wonders; insomuch that if it were possible, the would deceive the very elect.”)

For this reason, Jesus advised his followers to first evaluate if the apparent prophets and their disciples displayed good moral character. (Matt 7:22-23 – Many will say to me in that day, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy Name and cast out devils and performed many wonderful works. And then I will say to them ‘depart from me, you who work iniguity.”

Secondly, the doctrines taught by the apparent prophets must be consistent with previous revelations. (Galatians 1:8 – …there are some who are disturbing you and want to distort the gospel of Christ. But even if we, or an angel from heaven, should preach to you a gospel contrary to what we have preached to you, he is to be accursed! As we have said before, so I say again now, if any man is preaching to you a gospel contrary to what you received, he is to be accursed!…)

From my perspective, the claims made by Christians and Jews are based on a relationship between an infinite transcendent and its finite and limited creation. We argue with God (Genesis 18:16-33 in which Abraham pleads for the saving of Sodom). We struggle to understand with His teachings (Genesis 32:22-31 in which Jacob wrestles with the Angel of God). We strive to learn His ways (Philippians 2:12 – “work out your salvation with fear and trembling.” Because of Man’s corruption, people must be constantly strive for His Grace (Matt. 7:7 “Ask and it shall be given to you, seek and you will find…”) to be invigorated with the Holy Spirit directly, in each generation and every individual. There is no single source of guidance, but rather a multitude in order to reach each person in the manner best suited to them, right here, right now. For some that will be the glory and order of Nature. Others will come to faith on the knee of a respected teacher. For others, a deep reading of Holy Scripture will provide them the answers they need. Or intellectual demonstrations for those so inclined. In Christianity, each of these means work together to reveal Him to Mankind.

I think you believe that to achieve His Will, God would have to provide a single indisputable and immutable guide. Since you consider the Koran to be dictated (and thus immutable), it serves as a such a guide from the time of its authorship, today, and into the future. Personally, that kind of guidance seems not only very culturally and historically specific, it also seems similar to the stance of atheists who, declining to ask or seek out God, expect revelation to come in a gift box, wrapped up in a bow.

[drfuzzy]

Messengers were only needed before the modern age of global communication.  Now it would very, very easy for any all-powerful god (heck, it's easy for any educated human!) to get a clear message to everyone on the planet.  

The fact that god does not provide evidence of his existence to the approximately 5 billion (plus or minus, depending on your religion) that he's going to fry forever for not believing in his existence . . . suggests to me that either a deity does not exist, or if he does exist, he is not worthy of worship.

[Mystic]

Your modified argument is similar to mine but not exactly. For example, I do believe God to a degree can guide people without revelations and books, or a divine guide...but this is not the guidance I am talking about. I'm talking about a greater guidance.

If Moses came to Pharaoh and didn't bring miracles...and all he did was say "I bring a message which contains the light of God, if you embrace the holy spirit and seek God, you would recognize this to be from God" - it's least to say put's him in a weak position. For people who are confused, they need someone to pull them out of the darkness. They would not be confused if they had the holy spirit in them to the degree they could recognize the sacred nature of the message of a Prophet. They need something clear manifest. The reminders are important, but they need something to give them that trust, beyond, the confusion they are in. They need some form of manifest proof. 

Today, if all we have to bring in the discussion in religion and the manifesting the true one, is seek God, embrace the holy spirit, and the true teachings and scriptures and message of God would be revealed to you...but sorry to say...that is not a discussion. 

Of course if a book was to be from God and the Guide is appointed by God, they should be morally sublime, and not have clear indications of evil. We may have subjective opinion that some of it's teachings are evil, but in reality, there should be no clear evils in it, that is beyond doubt evil to us. This is clear.

However if I write a book without evils, and I appear as saint and put on act of holiness, people are not allowed to take my claim to being God's representative seriously if there is no clear proof.

People have wishwashy great feelings about certain texts all the time. People feel differently about different leaders or teachers or books. 

However God is capable of bringing down clear proofs. Given that he would not do great wonders like split the sea by deceivers or misguided or deluded or immoral people - but rather entrust such miracles (there can be miracles fake people do, but they would not be proofs like these) to his trusted elite servants who only perform such acts by his permission and not their whim. 

If all we have in discussion and interfaith, is that we ought to seek God and the truth, and will find it by mysterious feelings, then this to me is a joke of a Creator. He can perform clear indications that will convince the most confused, the most irrational, and bring them to clear insight but doesn't do so.

Now the fact we don't have proofs in the form physical supernatural miracles today, I feel, that this can only be explained by the fact God wrote a book and revealed a revelation to humanity, that it's eloquence is so manifest, so clear, as well as it's sublimity, it's majesty, that it's beyond doubt to everyone who comes to it having reflected and listened to it with some degree of reflection, that it's beyond human capability.  

I would feel that he would not write such a book and not emphasize on it's superior nature in that book, and challenge humanity to test if they can bring the like of any of it's chapters, so that a great discussion occurs surrounding the nature of the proof in the form of a miracle in words. For it to be central around this proof, but, it makes no emphasis on the superior nature of it...then I would say it would be indicative of neglect.

This is like a Prophet splitting the moon or turning a stick to snake, and then not even mention before or after, that is a clear proof. Acting like yeah I just did it but I'm not even going to remind you that this is a clear proof of my claims.

God didn't destroy any nations in the past by giving this whimsy argument to feel the truth of the Messengers message. That is important. The rational they call to is a clear reminder. But there ought to be proofs, clear indications...or it's really that compassionate and merciful of God to send such guidance to humanity. 

What kind of interfaith discussion is he giving people who see God and are guided by the Guide of time. Nothing. All they say is seek God, ask. Look at Drich doing this. It's a joke.

There has to be a clear sign, a clear proof. God wants us all to understand the nature of that proof, and if we are going to attribute something to God in society, we ought to bring our clear proof.

Otherwise, we are not ever going to unite on the rope of God and people won't be awakened to the Guide of age who is the companion to the journey that leads people in each state they must learn to adopt.

Now given a book after Quran can make similar claims, I believe it's rational that we see that people take this miracle seriously. That's it's eloquence is so far unmatched by society and that people are still unraveling literary qualities that seem beyond human capability. 

That it's not just the claim, but that people are taking this claim seriously, and that when we recite it ourselves in the original language, we come to feel that there is this special quality. 

The reality is such a book would have followers primarily emphasizing on this feature while if it wasn't such a book, people of it would be like Drich, always telling people to A/S/K (Ask, Seek, knock) and become at worst a laughing stuck, at best, a pointless dead end of a discussion.

[The Grand Nudger]

You seem to think that Drich is the only person making himself into a pointless laughingstock.  You think that your favorite bedtime story is magically awesome.  Good for you.

[Mystic]

You seem to think that Drich is the only person making himself into a pointless laughingstock.  You think that your favorite bedtime story is magically awesome.  Good for you.

The Quran brings clear proofs for the following:

Reminder of our witnessing the reality of Oneness of God and it's indications and the knowledge of a reality that points to this truth constantly. This detailed discourse through out the Quran illuminate the issue of not only why there can't be gods beside God but that there surely must a god. It kills two birds in one stone. It can be said the Shahada begins with testification that aren't many gods before acknowledge there is a god, because if we come to know why there can't be many gods, we automatically will know there is one God, and this the emphasized order in Quran in most of it's passages. You haven't moved beyond the step of even acknowledging your soul, so the clear indications of the Oneness of God, is not something you have really reflected about which would prove to you the existence of God.

Reminders of God's will, grace, lordship, and guiding nature, and the wonderful system that befits his majesty and is indicative of his beauty in so much as they are clear to us in the signs of God in ourselves, and with the condition of humanity and reminder of the exalted servants of God the chosen ones, it's clear proof of Prophethood and Authorities appointed by God. This much I could not see until I became a Deist that dabbled in thought of the Quran time to time, in which, the Quran became something else, for me, and began to appear more majestic by it's signs and arguments and insights.

Argument of particularly why this revelation (Quran) is true, and clear indications of Mohammad specifically. There is five arguments I know of particularly for this, there maybe more. If you aren't going to go past the first two, you take for granted there is no argument for this. This includes but is not limited to the eloquence of it.

Argument for particularly the Imams AFTER Mohammad, his successors, this is something, that God made a trial in Quran, and people are over all failing with this respect.

Clear Arguments and reminders for particularly how we should act in the times of no apparent guide, this is important, and something even a lot of people believing in the Imams are failing and are not aware of.

There is a reality to it and deep inside to it, that will only become known through the appearance of the last of the 12 Imams, the Imam Mahdi, this is going to be a miracle on top of it's miracle, in which, intellect of humanity will reach heights beyond what we can currently appreciate.

[Heat]

You seem to think that Drich is the only person making himself into a pointless laughingstock.  You think that your favorite bedtime story is magically awesome.  Good for you.

The Quran brings clear proofs for the following:

Reminder of our witnessing the reality of Oneness of God and it's indications and the knowledge of a reality that points to this truth constantly. This detailed discourse through out the Quran illuminate the issue of not only why there can't be gods beside God but that there surely must a god. It kills two birds in one stone. It can be said the Shahada begins with testification that aren't many gods before acknowledge there is a god, because if we come to know why there can't be many gods, we automatically will know there is one God, and this the emphasized order in Quran in most of it's passages. You haven't moved beyond the step of even acknowledging your soul, so the clear indications of the Oneness of God, is not something you have really reflected about which would prove to you the existence of God.

Reminders of God's will, grace, lordship, and guiding nature, and the wonderful system that befits his majesty and is indicative of his beauty in so much as they are clear to us in the signs of God in ourselves, and with the condition of humanity and reminder of the exalted servants of God the chosen ones, it's clear proof of Prophethood and Authorities appointed by God. This much I could not see until I became a Deist that dabbled in thought of the Quran time to time, in which, the Quran became something else, for me, and began to appear more majestic by it's signs and arguments and insights.

Argument of particularly why this revelation (Quran) is true, and clear indications of Mohammad specifically. There is five arguments I know of particularly for this, there maybe more. If you aren't going to go past the first two, you take for granted there is no argument for this. This includes but is not limited to the eloquence of it.

Argument for particularly the Imams AFTER Mohammad, his successors, this is something, that God made a trial in Quran, and people are over all failing with this respect.

Clear Arguments and reminders for particularly how we should act in the times of no apparent guide, this is important, and something even a lot of people believing in the Imams are failing and are not aware of.

There is a reality to it and deep inside to it, that will only become known through the appearance of the last of the 12 Imams, the Imam Mahdi, this is going to be a miracle on top of it's miracle, in which, intellect of humanity will reach heights beyond what we can currently appreciate.

Can you stop insisting that the Quran is clearly the truth in your replies. It just comes off as arrogant islamic bullshit, that everyone here already thinks is untrue, so ironically when you insist on repetitively reminding us that you believe this is the only correct interpretation in attempt to add credibility, it ends up just coming off as even more ridiculous and deters from the validity that you need to keep reminding us this is true in order for it to be true.