Why logical arguments for Messengers don't work.

[Mystic]

Can you stop insisting that the Quran is clearly the truth in your replies. It just comes off as arrogant islamic bullshit, that everyone here already thinks is untrue, so ironically when you insist on repetitively reminding us that you believe this is the only correct interpretation in attempt to add credibility, it ends up just coming off as even more ridiculous and deters from the validity that you need to keep reminding us this is true in order for it to be true.

You know what, I use to always say things like "I feel.." "I think..." "I believe...." instead of stating things firmly, and people always took it a stance of weakness on my part. I did it out of etiquette to the other side but I feel people mistaken this to be just mere feelings and belief, as opposed to justified belief, that I believe I do have. 

This is why I changed my tone.

[Nay_Sayer]

well any logical argument wouldn't work for you, You reject actual reality and replace it with your own.

[dyresand]

Seriously oh the quran is the truth. Well christians says the bible is truth every other religion claims theirs is truth.
All the quran and the muslim belief is the OT revision 1.5 unsupported claims and no evidence to back up the text.

[Neo-Scholastic]

Personally, I appreciate when MysticKnight puts forth Koranic verses to support his statements. To me, it shows that he he doesn't just have opinions, but that the opinions he has are justified within the tradition he follows. When you act as the representative for a faith tradition, then it helps establish your credentials. That is why, as a Christian in dialog with a Muslim, quote Scripture. Not to prove a point; but rather to show that the point I am making is a Christian one and not my own invention.

[Neo-Scholastic]

Seriously oh the quran is the truth. Well christians says the bible is truth every other religion claims theirs is truth.
All the quran  and the muslim belief is the OT revision 1.5 unsupported claims and no evidence to back up the text.

There is a difference between saying that a claim is truthful and saying that it is the only correct one.

[Wyrd of Gawd]

Seriously oh the quran is the truth. Well christians says the bible is truth every other religion claims theirs is truth.
All the quran  and the muslim belief is the OT revision 1.5 unsupported claims and no evidence to back up the text.

There is a difference between saying that a claim is truthful and saying that it is the only correct one.

Are we talking about donuts?

[The Grand Nudger]

You seem to think that Drich is the only person making himself into a pointless laughingstock.  You think that your favorite bedtime story is magically awesome.  Good for you.

The Quran brings clear proofs for the following:

You clearly don't understand the term proof.  

Reminder of our witnessing the reality of Oneness of God and it's indications and the knowledge of a reality that points to this truth constantly. This detailed discourse through out the Quran illuminate the issue of not only why there can't be gods beside God but that there surely must a god. It kills two birds in one stone. It can be said the Shahada begins with testification that aren't many gods before acknowledge there is a god, because if we come to know why there can't be many gods, we automatically will know there is one God, and this the emphasized order in Quran in most of it's passages. You haven't moved beyond the step of even acknowledging your soul, so the clear indications of the Oneness of God, is not something you have really reflected about which would prove to you the existence of God.

Reminders of God's will, grace, lordship, and guiding nature, and the wonderful system that befits his majesty and is indicative of his beauty in so much as they are clear to us in the signs of God in ourselves, and with the condition of humanity and reminder of the exalted servants of God the chosen ones, it's clear proof of Prophethood and Authorities appointed by God. This much I could not see until I became a Deist that dabbled in thought of the Quran time to time, in which, the Quran became something else, for me, and began to appear more majestic by it's signs and arguments and insights.

Argument of particularly why this revelation (Quran) is true, and clear indications of Mohammad specifically. There is five arguments I know of particularly for this, there maybe more. If you aren't going to go past the first two, you take for granted there is no argument for this. This includes but is not limited to the eloquence of it.

Argument for particularly the Imams AFTER Mohammad, his successors, this is something, that God made a trial in Quran, and people are over all failing with this respect.

Clear Arguments and reminders for particularly how we should act in the times of no apparent guide, this is important, and something even a lot of people believing in the Imams are failing and are not aware of.

There is a reality to it and deep inside to it, that will only become known through the appearance of the last of the 12 Imams, the Imam Mahdi, this is going to be a miracle on top of it's miracle, in which, intellect of humanity will reach heights beyond what we can currently appreciate.

.....as if on cue, you make yourself into a pointless laughingstock.

[Neo-Scholastic]

Your modified argument is similar to mine but not exactly. For example, I do believe God to a degree can guide people without revelations and books, or a divine guide...but this is not the guidance I am talking about. I'm talking about a greater guidance.

I’m not disregarding the rest of your thoughtful post; but rather, I would like to focus on the ‘greater guidance’ that you would expect to see from God. I imagine you see greater guidance as one or more of the following: 1) general principles about Justice and the Good or 2) specific rituals and practices for everyday life that exemplify the virtue or 3) specific commands to act or admonishment to refrain from acting both of which believers must obey.

We may have subjective opinion that some of it's teachings are evil, but in reality, there should be no clear evils in it, that is beyond doubt evil to us. This is clear.

Maybe not clear enough to me as of yet. An example may help. The Torah relates many apparently historical events in which God commands the ancient Israelites to commit actions that today seem morally repugnant. Are these the kinds of teachings to which you refer? There is also a problem with setting up a circular argument. If the book serves as our moral guide, then how can we judge the goodness of its teachings without referencing the book itself.

However if I write a book without evils, and I appear as saint and put on act of holiness, people are not allowed to take my claim to being God's representative seriously if there is no clear proof.

Perhaps I think differently. If I say that all that is good comes from God, then when someone does something good they are, whether they know it or not, representing God.

If all we have in discussion and interfaith, is that we ought to seek God and the truth, and will find it by mysterious feelings, then this to me is a joke of a Creator. He can perform clear indications that will convince the most confused, the most irrational, and bring them to clear insight but doesn't do so.

There is a riddle goes like this: Can God create a stone so heavy that He cannot lift it? The best answer given (by Pascal, I think) is yes. That stone is the human heart. The proofs and demonstrations are there for all to see. You have presented many of these proofs and demonstrations yourself. The problem is that no one, God, can compel love. Diffidence and obedience can be forced upon someone, but love cannot.
As for me, I do not come to you with mysterious feelings. All I am saying is that there are deep intellectual traditions within both Christianity and Islam. We cannot be experts in both and, as for me, I’ve only scratched the surface of the Patristic literature and consider myself a far cry from being an expert in it. And yet I can recognize sound reasoning, as you clearly can.

Now the fact we don't have proofs in the form physical supernatural miracles today,…

I believe miracles still happen. They serve as testimony for those who experience them, but I agree that they cannot be authoritative beyond those witnesses.

What kind of interfaith discussion is he giving people who see God and are guided by the Guide of time. Nothing. All they say is seek God, ask. Look at Drich doing this. It's a joke.

That’s a bit harsh. Do you not agree that in order to attain knowledge of any kind a seeker must be adequately prepared to receive it? Why should God respond to arrogant demands from His Creations? Is it not fitting and proper that He would only reveal Himself to those who approach Him with humility?

…when we recite it [the Koran] ourselves in the original language, we come to feel that there is this special quality.

Respectfully, how is this different from the mysterious feelings that you consider a joke?

[Mystic]

Before responding, I just wanted to say it's breathe a fresh air to discuss with you.

[Mystic]

I’m not disregarding the rest of your thoughtful post; but rather, I would like to focus on the ‘greater guidance’ that you would expect to see from God. I imagine you see greater guidance as one or more of the following: 1) general principles about Justice and the Good or 2) specific rituals and practices for everyday life that exemplify the virtue or 3) specific commands to act or admonishment to refrain from acting both of which believers must obey.

I think that is part of the guidance. What I see more important is revelation then simply commands is

1) Issue of power/authority and discussion of true authority, and God's will on how about to go in the situation of facing it, as well as verses point how to deal with this issue in a wise way. Any book that ignores this issue is missing a key important issue of facing humanity. How to recognize false authority and true authority.

2) A sophisticated philosophy in how you can come to know God's existence, his Oneness, his signs in the soul, his attributes. 

3) Philosophy of why he would send guidance, and appoint Guides.

4) Reminder of the inward kingdom.

5) Philosophy in how he goes about appointing Guides and uniting some of their causes with each other.

6) A guidance on how to recognize the specific guide of our time and philosophy as to why there must be a Guide in each age.

7) I would expect it to not be of monotone boring type discussion, but that of passionate advice, made in a way that has effect, which includes eloquence, because eloquence helps a lot to convey points to the heart and make an emotional effect. The guidance thus must include an emotional impact in form of advice, admonishment and inspiration.

8) I would expect inspiration of examples of the chosen ones as well as of some inspirational followers they had.

9) I would expect emphasis on following a current set of role models that are connected to our times more through history then simply ancient stories which can be lessons but have little connection to our situation. 

10) The characteristics of the Guide of our time I would expect to be in the book and deep philosophy on how the type of guidance he been entrusted with in the spiritual realm to me is a must.

These are some of what I expect given the knowledge I have.

To be continued....