My supposition is that the bible is a pile of dogshit.
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Current time: December 23, 2024, 9:41 am
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What's the best way to shut up a Presuppositionalist?
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That moment where we all are just waiting for the first stooge to make a debut.
(April 25, 2014 at 1:39 am)Esquilax Wrote:(April 25, 2014 at 1:15 am)Coffee Jesus Wrote: How do they argue for the first premise? It's a combination of that and some sort of BS about Christianity being "the only tradition that supports logic, reason and ethics." I've seen and heard cursorily "coherent" arguments, but have trouble paraphrasing them because, frankly, it turns my stomach, and circular reasoning should be dismissed out of hand. But that can appear to "reinforce" their argument, and they'll claim it does. There's a good summary given by the Reasonable Doubts podcast here: http://freethoughtblogs.com/reasonabledo...cs-part-2/ (April 25, 2014 at 3:38 am)Rampant.A.I. Wrote: It's a combination of that and some sort of BS about Christianity being "the only tradition that supports logic, reason and ethics." And the really troubling thing is, where do they get their notions of the latter point? From the former. It's the same crap we get when we get told that the fool hath said in his heart there is no god, it's just bolstered by this bizarre insistence that the presup gets to take total control of the conversation, and if you can't immediately rebut their three or four bald assertions from the bible, then you no longer have anything else to say. I'm most familiar with Sye Ten Bruggencate's "debate" style, so I'm not really sure if there's any legitimate humans that attempt this argument, but his entire schtick is nothing more than bullying and interrupting wrapped around a couple bible quotes and an unjust sense of smugness.
"YOU take the hard look in the mirror. You are everything that is wrong with this world. The only thing important to you, is you." - ronedee
Want to see more of my writing? Check out my (safe for work!) site, Unprotected Sects! (April 24, 2014 at 5:38 pm)Rampant.A.I. Wrote: Instead of advancing arguments for the existence of God, the Presuppositionalist simply assumes it as granted. They assume, therefore, that atheists must assume God does not exist in order to formulate arguments, and reject any argument that does not presuppose <God Exists> as invalid. If they do this, come up with something even more absurd and stick to it. Tell them that YHWH isn't even that great of a god, and certainly not a perfect one. State that all gods are under the dominion of the over-deity, Steve. All things proceed from Steve, and everything is evidence of His glory. Use the TAG argument as evidence that Steve exists. Any arguments the presuppositionalist uses can be turned toward Steve. Any time they assert that YHWH is the one, true god, sadly shake your head and ask them why they are denying Steve when they know he's correct. (April 24, 2014 at 5:38 pm)Rampant.A.I. Wrote: Instead of advancing arguments for the existence of God, the Presuppositionalist simply assumes it as granted. They assume, therefore, that atheists must assume God does not exist in order to formulate arguments, and reject any argument that does not presuppose <God Exists> as invalid.If I am understanding correctly, the PA is claiming that simply having the discussion is proof of god, and therefore you prove god exists by making any argument at all. So the obvious retort is... none at all. This works on any number of levels, the most important being that you waste as little time with him as possible and can get on to more productive endeavors, such as... just about anything else.
"Well, evolution is a theory. It is also a fact. And facts and theories are different things, not rungs in a hierarchy of increasing certainty. Facts are the world's data. Theories are structures of ideas that explain and interpret facts. Facts don't go away when scientists debate rival theories to explain them. Einstein's theory of gravitation replaced Newton's in this century, but apples didn't suspend themselves in midair, pending the outcome. And humans evolved from ape- like ancestors whether they did so by Darwin's proposed mechanism or by some other yet to be discovered."
-Stephen Jay Gould
A high velocity lobotomy.
Playing Cluedo with my mum while I was at Uni: "You did WHAT? With WHO? WHERE???"
Presuppositionalism is to logic what beating yourself to death with your own legs is to running. It's diving down a hole and pulling the hole in after you, using a tool that can only dig down and never up. Let such people go, there's nothing you can do for them. Maybe they can escape, but they can't be rescued.
I'm not anti-Christian. I'm anti-stupid.
RE: What's the best way to shut up a Presuppositionalist?
April 25, 2014 at 1:05 pm
(This post was last modified: April 25, 2014 at 1:08 pm by Coffee Jesus.)
(April 25, 2014 at 1:39 am)Esquilax Wrote:(April 25, 2014 at 1:15 am)Coffee Jesus Wrote: How do they argue for the first premise? That's easy. Their premise, which they use to exclude all other possible foundations, assumes that their foundation is correct. The argument is essentially: My foundation is correct, therefore my foundation must be correct. What verses do they use to support their premise? I read about the Clarkian presuppositionalists, who will argue that no other worldview is totally coherent. Don't forget that their worldview comes from a book, so it's only fair that you can choose a book as the foundation of your worldview. Choose a science textbook. That ought to be coherent.
Tell them you're already saved. If they protest that you're an unbeliever, tell them there are no such things.
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