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RE: What's the best way to shut up a Presuppositionalist?
April 26, 2014 at 8:09 am
(April 25, 2014 at 1:05 pm)Coffee Jesus Wrote: That's easy. Their premise, which they use to exclude all other possible foundations, assumes that their foundation is correct.
The argument is essentially: My foundation is correct, therefore my foundation must be correct.
What verses do they use to support their premise?
Sye Ten Bruggencate seems to be fond of "the fear of the lord is the beginning of wisdom" from the Psalms, though interestingly he'll switch out "wisdom" for "knowledge," despite not being present in any translation I've seen.
Given this, he presupposes that if you don't believe in god, you can't have knowledge and... that's it. He's done, and he can spend the rest of the conversation asking "how do you know that?"
It's really gross. 
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RE: What's the best way to shut up a Presuppositionalist?
April 27, 2014 at 12:21 am
(April 25, 2014 at 2:35 pm)rasetsu Wrote: Tell them you're already saved. If they protest that you're an unbeliever, tell them there are no such things.
Don't they already claim something similar? They claim that EVERYONE knows the Christian god exists, but that some merely reject him because they're "supressing the truth in unrighteousness".
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RE: What's the best way to shut up a Presuppositionalist?
April 27, 2014 at 9:42 am
So if there is no knowledge without some 'god' or other, and 'Hell' is a place without 'god' then there can be no knowledge of 'hell' and anyone who makes such a claim is obviously lying?
Quote:I don't understand why you'd come to a discussion forum, and then proceed to reap from visibility any voice that disagrees with you. If you're going to do that, why not just sit in front of a mirror and pat yourself on the back continuously?
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RE: What's the best way to shut up a Presuppositionalist?
April 29, 2014 at 11:22 pm
(April 27, 2014 at 12:21 am)MindForgedManacle Wrote: (April 25, 2014 at 2:35 pm)rasetsu Wrote: Tell them you're already saved. If they protest that you're an unbeliever, tell them there are no such things.
Don't they already claim something similar? They claim that EVERYONE knows the Christian god exists, but that some merely reject him because they're "supressing the truth in unrighteousness".
All fundies know The Bible is inaccurate and brutish; they're just unattractive morons taking out their sexual frustration on politics. They're jealous of our sex-lives. 
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RE: What's the best way to shut up a Presuppositionalist?
April 29, 2014 at 11:39 pm
(April 25, 2014 at 9:05 am)RobbyPants Wrote: If they do this, come up with something even more absurd and stick to it.
Tell them that YHWH isn't even that great of a god, and certainly not a perfect one. State that all gods are under the dominion of the over-deity, Steve. All things proceed from Steve, and everything is evidence of His glory.
You've got the same argument there that I use. Only for me, the first meta-god is named Larry. The second is Moe, then Curley, Shemp and I don't know what comes after them.
Do you suppose that Larry may simply be an alternative name for Steve?
So how, exactly, does God know that She's NOT a brain in a vat? 
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RE: What's the best way to shut up a Presuppositionalist?
April 30, 2014 at 12:04 am
I hope not. I don't want to be a Larry.
At the age of five, Skagra decided emphatically that God did not exist. This revelation tends to make most people in the universe who have it react in one of two ways - with relief or with despair. Only Skagra responded to it by thinking, 'Wait a second. That means there's a situation vacant.'
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RE: What's the best way to shut up a Presuppositionalist?
April 30, 2014 at 3:51 pm
(This post was last modified: April 30, 2014 at 4:05 pm by Coffee Jesus.)
(April 26, 2014 at 8:09 am)Esquilax Wrote: (April 25, 2014 at 1:05 pm)Coffee Jesus Wrote: That's easy. Their premise, which they use to exclude all other possible foundations, assumes that their foundation is correct.
The argument is essentially: My foundation is correct, therefore my foundation must be correct.
What verses do they use to support their premise?
Sye Ten Bruggencate seems to be fond of "the fear of the lord is the beginning of wisdom" from the Psalms, though interestingly he'll switch out "wisdom" for "knowledge," despite not being present in any translation I've seen.
Given this, he presupposes that if you don't believe in god, you can't have knowledge and... that's it. He's done, and he can spend the rest of the conversation asking "how do you know that?"
It's really gross.
They need to assume an empirical framework to know that the Bible exists! Whenever they say "The Bible says..." ask them how they know The Bible says that.
"Because I read it."
"How do you know you read it right?"
"Because I know how to read."
"How do you know you know how to read?"
"Because everyone else reads it to say the same thing."
... and so on, until they tacitly acknowledge that they can't know what The Bible says without first assuming an empirical framework.
Then you proceed to show that their empirical framework contradicts their Biblical foundation.
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RE: What's the best way to shut up a Presuppositionalist?
April 30, 2014 at 4:32 pm
Realize the only way to make christianity the only religion to use logic is to beg the question which is a logical fallacy.
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RE: What's the best way to shut up a Presuppositionalist?
April 30, 2014 at 4:51 pm
(April 24, 2014 at 5:53 pm)Kitanetos Wrote: (April 24, 2014 at 5:38 pm)Rampant.A.I. Wrote: If there is no god (most often the entity God, defined as the god of the Christian Bible, Yahweh), knowledge is not possible.
Knowledge is possible (or some other statement pertaining to logic or morality).
Therefore a god exists.
The first premise, if there is no god--->knowledge is not possible, is flawed and fallacious.
Isn't it strange that Yahweh never seemed to reveal anything that was only later discovered by skeptical scientists?
You'd think the source of all knowledge would occasionally tip off some of his most faithful believers.
Atheist Forums Hall of Shame:
"The trinity can be equated to having your cake and eating it too."
... -Lucent, trying to defend the Trinity concept
"(Yahweh's) actions are good because (Yahweh) is the ultimate standard of goodness. That’s not begging the question"
... -Statler Waldorf, Christian apologist
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