My mother had me when she was 16 and married my "Father" when I was 5. He adopted me at age 11. I'm now 32 and he and my Mother divorced eight years ago. This is the discussion I've been having with him through Facebook. Looking for some support, does anyone have any tips or feedback? I'm feeling so defeated and have not been able to get through to him. I know it's a lot to read through, so if anyone has the time I will greatly appreciate it. Also, we reference my grandmother, who died Dec. 2012.
Jay Luebbers: You really believe the Noah's ark story in the bible is literally true?
John Luebbers: Yes. Noah was real and so was his boat. The flood was very real.
Jay: What about the collecting of the male and female of every animal species part?
John: yes
Jay: If God was as perfect as he said he was, he would have never needed to destroy everything and start over. It is such an oxymoron.
John: He gave us free will. He also is a vengefull God. Man disobeyed him. There was a consequence. Death by water. Will happen again. Fire next time.
Jay: I was always told as a child that God does not punish you while you are on Earth, that is left for judgement in the afterlife. Was I lied to?
John: No, I believe that to be true. One day life on earth will end for all of us. Then the judgements begin.
Jay: But the great flood gave judgement to everyone on earth except Noah and his family... God delivered physical judgement to people who were on earth... How does that correlate with your belief that god does not judge on Earth?!?!??!?
John: That was before Christ died. We were judged and punished here on earth. eg. Adam and Eve. Sodom and Ghomora. Death is not judgement, nor punishment. That comes after death.
Jay: So god changed his mind???
John: Do you grill the others who believe as I do? Such as your siblings? Mom? her entire family?
No, God has had a plan from the get go.
Jay: Nope. I wish, though.
John: Why do you wish?
Jay: But the whole point of the flood was that god 'screwed up' so he had to start over. If god were as perfect as the bible said he is, the flood would never had to happen. He is a sadomasochist who has no value for human life.
Why do I wish? Because I feel like everyone in my family was indoctrinated and brainwashed
John: That would be Hitler, and certain Muslims, not God. Umm, I believe it is you who is being brainwashed. Tell them that then.
Jay: Even your sisters told me they believed the old testament was just made up stories. Have never forgotten that.
John: Abortionists have no value for human life.
You are right..they do believe that, saddens me...
Jay: If god had value for human life, he would not let innocent people suffer and die. If the god of the bible is real, he is an asshole.
John: now THAT saddens me.
I have no answers as to why God lets good people die. His plan. Which I have faith in.
death is a reward for believers
Jay: Faith = believing in something with no proof. You are entitled to believe that but it is as ridiculous as believing that there are leprechauns. Only based on old books, not proof.
John: Our existence here on earth is proof.
Jay: If death is such a reward, then why do you go to a doctor? Why have medicine? Everyone should just die.
John: Believing in the big bang theory requires more faith than believing in God
We all are afraid of death.
Not all who die will get rewarded withn heaven..
Jay: It's called a theory for a reason... It's a theory, there is no wAy to know how everything happened or why. To believe a boom written by humans 70 years after anything they wrote about actually happened is idiotic. The only reason people believe it is because they were indoctrinated as children... If you had been born in Afghanistan you would be a Muslim, as fervent in your beliefs as you are now.
John: Not all born in Muslim countries are Muslim. many are Christian.
Why do you participate in Easter and Xmas celebrations? That is hypocritical.
Jay: To not upset my family. And because there is a lot of good food.
Hypocritical? Maybe. But I have no choice if I want to maintain relationships with people I care about.
John: But you put up xmas lights and a tree right?
You can maintain. They will never abandon you
Jay Luebbers
Nope, even if I did, it would be a social thing, not a religious thing. What matters is what I believe personally.
John: Well I see you dont care if you offend me
Jay: No, I don't. I guess I see you as an equal whom I'm not afraid to debate with. I think that is actually a compliment.
John: Well yes, it is...Almost as if Sheldon Cooper called me an equal.
Jay: Thanks for that. I complimented you and then you insulted me. Perfect.
John: How did I insult?
Jay: Because you compared me to Sheldon.
http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=zDHJ4ztnldQ
John: “Everyone who acknowledges me publicly here on earth, I will also acknowledge before my Father in heaven. But everyone who denies me here on earth, I will also deny before my Father in heaven. “Don’t imagine that I came to bring peace to the earth! I came not to bring peace, but a sword. ‘I have come to set a man against his father, a daughter against her mother, and a daughter-in-law against her mother-in-law. Your enemies will be right in your own household!’ “If you love your father or mother more than you love me, you are not worthy of being mine; or if you love your son or daughter more than me, you are not worthy of being mine. If you refuse to take up your cross and follow me, you are not worthy of being mine. If you cling to your life, you will lose it; but if you give up your life for me, you will find it. “Anyone who receives you receives me, and anyone who receives me receives the Father who sent me. (Matthew 10:32-40 NLT)
Above all, you must realize that no prophecy in Scripture ever came from the prophet’s own understanding, or from human initiative. No, those prophets were moved by the Holy Spirit, and they spoke from God. (2 Peter 1:20, 21 NLT)
All Scripture is inspired by God and is useful to teach us what is true and to make us realize what is wrong in our lives. It corrects us when we are wrong and teaches us to do what is right. God uses it to prepare and equip his people to do every good work. (2 Timothy 3:16, 17 NLT)
There's plenty more where that came from. Let me know if you want more.
Jay: Using the bible to prove anything or refute an argument is just as reliable as using the Koran or Dr. Seuss' books. Just for the record I do not believe there is no God, just that if the God of the Bible is the actual God, he is completely messed up and not worth any human devotion or worship.
John: Believe in a god other than God at your own peril. Have fun praying with the brainwashed on Sunday.
I watched 60 seconds of that video. Didnt waste anyomre of my time.
Jay: Being brainwashed is what religion is all about. If it weren't passed down to you via brainwashing you wouldn't believe it either.
Alright, then. Nice knowing you.
John: You are very wrong.. I resent you sayig I brainwashed the 3 of yo. Liar.
Jay: I don't blame you. You were brainwashed and passed that down. Not your fault.
John: arogant ass
Jay: I'm not being arrogant... You deny any fallibility of the bible... But also taught us that God does not judge or punish us while we are in earth, which is obviously wrong if you read the Bible. God murdered millions of people in the Bible. He decided he made mistakes even though he said he was omniscient and all powerful. He is the arrogant ass.
John: Millions? How do yo figre? He is indeed , infalible. Maybe 100s died in the flood.
Jay: I don't care how many hundreds or thousands of people or animals it was. If he was so perfect he would not have created such horrible people, and apparently such land animals that deserved to die, he should have never given them life in the first place. What an asshole. If God loved us and was so powerful, he would have murdered the devil. No arguing that. I thought you said quit wasting your time? Then don't respond.
John: i said the video was a waste of my time. Not our discusions. We made God very angry. He gave us all free will. Judgements before the death of Christ is very different after death.
Jay: I'm sorry, if god gave us free will, then prayer is pointless. Why pray for change when god has already planned everything?!
John: I wish I had exact answers..I dont. God is a mystery sometimes. You seem very angry.
Jay: I don't have exact answers either. What makes me angry is that societal and political policies are based on a religion that doesn't have exact answers. Anyone is free to believe what they wish, including you and I respect that and your beliefs, as long as it does not infringe on the rights of others. That has not been the case. It has been getting better, but our forefathers' insistence on separation of church and state has had a tough time incorporating it's way into society and government.
John: the forefathers did not insist on it...those words are not in the constitution. It was in a letter wirtten by Thomas Jefferson...How has Christianity, in the USA, infringed on anyones rights?
Jay: In so many ways I can't even can't describe... Our nation was founded on freedom of religion.... But if your religion was not Christianity you were fucked... Women couldn't vote until 1921... Blacks and whites couldn't marry because of bible arguments..... Gays for the same reason!!
John: I never said all goverment policies made sense. I do not see other religions in this country being persecuted... to the contrary
A religion not being persecuted is way different than a religion being promoted. You didn't address my arguments at all.
John: Christianity is not being promoted. How do you figure it is.
Jay: Women couldn't vote, blacks and whites couldn't marry, gays can't marry, all three of those debated to the ground by Christians basing their arguments off of the bible.
John: Gays can marry now.
Jay: And women can vote now and interracial couples can marry now. What changed? The bible didn't change, but people during each time fervently argued the bible was against it.
John:Society has changed.
Some people are hard headed.
Religion is a non factor in governmnet policies
Jay: If society has changed, so then the rules of the Bible have changed???
John: No. The Bible has remained constant.
How society feels toward certain isses has changed.
Jay: And that includes you?
John: Some , not all
Accepting is more the proper term
Some things are fait accompli...
Jay: Well that is hypocritical then. things were preached to me and drilled into my brain as a child, and then one day people decide to change their minds. You should be following the bible word for word and staying steadfast in your beliefs and opinions. Anything other than that makes you a hypocrite and against the bible.
John: sarcasm
Jay: Not sarcasm at all... Wtf?
Never mind. Don't even reply. Let's just call it a stand-still. I brought up so many questions you never answered and you diverted my attention by bringing up something else. I want to be done. Not because I don't have the energy or knowledge, but because it hurts me to argue with you about something like this. Think it's something better left to people who are not family
John: I didnt see it as argueing insomuch as a spirited discussion. If i didnt answer a question it is becavse I didnt have a good answer. I try to be straight up. Have fun on Sunday.
Jay: Ok, well then I respect that. But knowing you shared things with my mother and I have no idea what you told her makes me uneasy about continuing. Because I have to admit I enjoy the debate, but not so much I'm willing to jeopardize my relationship with my mother.
John: That will never happen. Her love for yo is vnconditional..as it shovld be.
Jay: I know that, but would expect that conversations with you were kept just between you and I.
John: I am concertned abovt yovr beliefs..I shared my concerns
Jay: Then this is over.
I'm concerned about your beliefs but not telling anyone about it.
John: The same beliefs that all of yovr family members have.
Jay: Means nothing. Billions of people believe in Hinduism and Judaism and Islam and Buddhism. Why are their beliefs any more significant than Christians'? They were all raised to believe what they believe by their parents.
John: My point is, who would yo express concerns too?
Jay: If you were not raised with your family and were born in Japan instead, you would be a bhuddist, arguing your side with me as fervently as you are as a Christian. You cannot possibly deny that.
John: I do not deny that. Alot of Japanese have converted to Christianity.
Jay: And a lot of Christians have converted to bhuddism.
John: I wovldnt say alot. Too bad for them
Jay: Heh sure. Anyways, I wouldn't express my concerns to anyone, because it would fall on deaf ears. There are millions of people concerned with the extremist religious views of others. Nothing can be done about it except fostering free thought. If someone wants to believe in a religion because they decided to as an adult, and their beliefs did not infringe on anyone's rights or influence law or education, the it is their right and I would stand up for them.
This country was founded on the belief that anyone is free to believe whatever they believe. But the one thing we all believe in and have a right to is freedom and justice, which is devoid of any religion.
John: I respect that Jay. In my opinion education, especially higher education, dampens free thought.
Jay: That is a really broad brush to paint. Any kind of education applies to that? Or just the education that you believe in? What about Sunday school? That was an education forced on me, which was anything but free thought.
What about education on how to create a fire or cook a meal or card iron? That dampens free thought?
*cast
John: As I said, mostly higher ed. The college professers brainwash the students into believing their point of view. Sunday School wasnt supposed to be a free thought zone. The purpose was to teach Christians more about our faith.
Jay: The last two sentences you said sum up everything I have said that is a problem with the Christian faith. And every other faith. They all practice indoctrination.
John: Learning the word of God is never a bad thing.
Jay: Unless it's Allah? Or Yahweh? Or Bhuddah? Or Zeus? Or Aphrodite? Or Horus?
Horus was worshiped in Egypt 1,000 years before Jesus, and his story is 95% exactly the same as Jesus's.
John: Thats not for me, but to each their own. The resurrection of Christ is a story also?
Jay: What do you think? A story from 1,000 years prior of the son of god who was crucified and resurrected on the third day is just a coincidence that the same story happened with Jesus?
And not only those similarities but many more? Read about the similarities between Horus and Jesus, google it.
John: hmmm..I will
Depends on which version of Horus yo choose to believe. There are many.
Men, desperate to validate their worldviews, made up, it seems, parts of the story to fit their opinion that the Bible is a myth. The accounts of Jesus, his birth, life, death, and resurrection have not changed. Or differed.
Jay: And neither have Horus's. And his story has not been translated and re-translated through multiple languages, changing the meanings. And into different versions to 'change with the times.' I.e king James, NIV, the living bible, NRSV, the message, the new american bible, etc. which all depict different versions of the Jesus story.
And they have changed. They differ between Matthew, Mark, Luke and John, even in the original King James Version.
John: different translations dont change the facts. You have read all these versions?
Jay: Have you?
John: No..
Jay: Also different translations do change the facts. In earlier versions when talking about Sodom it was about rapists, then in the NIV it was changed to 'homosexuals' as if they were they same thing.
John: the james version refers to men wanting to have sex with men in Sodom right before God destroys the city
With the angels
John: they say to Abraham..where are the men so we can have relations with them
Jay: The story is about rape, not whether people are hetero or homosexual
John: bth versions are pretty much the same...there wasnt a change to suit someones agenda
Jay: Omg... Yes there was. So do you believe the story of sodom and gommorah was about how homosexuality is wrong?
John: No. The bible is not specific about the sins committed..
Jay: OMg. Then how do you know what sins are???
John: I meant sins committed in Sodom ad Ghamora
Jay: OmG. Read what you just said. Do you follow the ten commandments?
John: and xmas was originally a pagan celebration
Jay: Exactly... And the Jesus story was originally about Horus.... And several other gods at the time. The movie 'zeitgeist' changed my life.
John: All yov believe is based on a movie> I ddnt see anything on Horvs that leads me to believe the story is the basis for Christ.. Yov are pvtting alot of faith in a movie...very dangerovs...Are yov trying to convince me yov are right?
do yov believe in the 9-11 conspiracies?
Jay: No... I don't believe in the 9/11 conspiracies, though I also don't not believe in them either. I don't trust our politicians whether republican or democrat. I think it's a sham. I believe 9/11 was either a random event or a planned event by the government, there is no way that I could personally know enough truths to believe in either.
John: I agree...I have zero trvst in ovr government...some things abovt 911 d
dont add vp
my yew doesnt operate
Jay: But when george bush jr. Was our president, you had absolute faith in him, no?
John: no..not 100%..he was a member of scvll and bones at yale..a secret, somesay demonic grovp
didnt trvst his dad at all
Jay: Well I will give you that... But my mom and siblings posted so many posts about W 2008
I think the whole political system is so corrupt it doesn't matter who you vote for...
John: yovr mom didnt delveinto things mvch..what do yovr sibs vnderstnd abovt things?
Jay: What you and her have educated them on, that is what they believe.
John: I agrre on yivr last point..
Jay: And that belief is that the republican candidate is for God and the democrats are against God
John: I didnt edvcate them on the things I really believe.they were too yovng to vnderstand
I dont exactly elieve that...some Dems are Xtians..some Reps are not
Jay: Exactly... But they shared your beliefs anyways, because that was all they knew
John: Mom was aware ofwhat i thovght..
bvt she tends to believe in the 2 party system still
Jay: As as her and your children. I love her so much I am not willing to blame her for any of their beliefs... They were drilled into her as a child. It almost makes me love her more.
But just because your parents taught you things as a child does not mean they are right.
John: she shovldnt be blamed.. her grandparents were a little over the top
of covrse not..not everything I believe..or she be;lives is right..
Jay: I will agree, but according to you anyone who practices what is in the bible is not over the top, and that is what they did. Either the bible is 100% true and you should believe and follow everything it says, or it's not true at all. You can't cherry pick things you believe.
John: gtrandma marion scared me sometimes...The bible is 100% trve...I dont live my life as if i believe that
Jay: Why not then? If it's 100% true the you should love your life that way.
*then
*live
John: yov are correct..bvt, I have fallenshort..as hae mostpeople
Jay: I don't believe the bible is 100% true. Do you?
John: yes
Jay: Then you need to read the Bible. Again.
John: havenever read mvch of it..I do need to..
Jay: I will talk to you after that.
John: may be awhile
Jay: That's fine with me.
John: Ican tell yov that nothing will change..
Jay: You'd think though after 50 years you'd have at least read the Bible once
John: bts and pieces...it is qvite boring to read
have yov?
Jay: Wow... And yes, I have read the while bible. Twice. I don't remember specific verses or chapters, though. It is a lot. I have Grandma Marion's Bible, which I feel guilty and thankful for at the same time,
John: why gvilty?
Jay: Because I don't believe in everything it says. I loved her and love my grandma carol for giving it to me, but feel it should have gone to a true believer.
John: They wovld mvch prefer that yov hve it.
Jay: I do treasure it. But it will not change my beliefs. I think I will give it to one of Sam's children's one day.
John: He wovl appreciate that
Jay: I respect his and Laura's and my morher's beliefs... I will never do anything to harm that.
*mother's... Ugh
I have my own beliefs, that there is a God but he is nothing like the murderous, jealous tyrant that is epicted in the Bible.
But that is my own belief, nothing to enforce on anyone else.
John: How is yovr God?
Jay: How is my god? I don't understand the question.
John: If not jealovs, vengefvl, angry...then what is he ?
Jay: None of those things.... How can God be loving, omniscient and have a plan for everything, but also vengeful, jealous and angry? It's an oxymoron.
and tell me how you justify anything in this video, it is all in the bible, which you believe to be absolute truth - and don't give me the 'quit wasting my time' argument and just watch it
http://youtu.be/PP0bLdOplyk
John: This video is shit...garbage.... You didn't answer my question about what your god is like. After Christ died some things in the old testament are no longer true. Ask your mom , she has better answers. God , is indeed, loving. He sacrificed his son, so we could have a path to heaven. No truer love
He was angry because he loved us so much. Indifference is the opposite of love.
Jay: If things from the Old Testament are no longer "true" then why do you believe them?!? I.e Noah's ark?!? Also, if you had watched the video, Jesus have instructions on how to treat slaves... Wtf?!?!?
John: a video made by an atheist is not a source I trust
Some old testament laws...common Jay, you are smarter thn that
Jay: Does not answer the questions, read the damn bible, it's all there
John: show me the verses
Jay: Also if god is angry, it's his whole fault, everything that happens is because GOD PLANNED IT right? Why is he angry with his own plan?
The verses were stated in the video
John: I don't trust the video
ask your mom if you want to know
Jay: The video uses the bible as a source and you trust the bible
That is a cop out because you don't have an answer
John: a video made by an ahtiest is a piece of fucking shit
You are too afraid of her
Jay: Even if it's the truth?
John: prove to me its the truth
Jay: I CAN! Read the bible!
John:Are you trying to convince me 100s of millions are wrong?
Jay: Yep... Hundreds of millions believe in the Islam god and Judaism and Hinduism, more than Christians. And you think they're all wrong.
John: they are..
there is only 1 right...
Jay: Then there you go. Just because hundreds of millions of people believe in something gives it no credibility.
John: zero
dis God at your own peril Jay.
Jay: You only believe what you believe because you were born to a Christian family. If you had been born in India you would not believe in the Christian God.
John: A lot of I ndians are Christians
Jay: That has no argument, if you were born into an Indian Hindu family, you would be Hindu and just as fervent in your beliefs.
John: I would be wrong..and condemned
Jay: But you would not think that.
And it wouldn't be your fault.
John: doesn't matter what I would think
Jay: Exactly...!!!!!
John: the truth is the truth no matter whether I believed it or not
Jay: You have no proof that your religion is the "right one."
John: Just a faith...which is enough
Jay: Exactly!!! You cannot claim you know the "truth"!!!!
John: the Bible is the truth, Jesus Christ is the truth
Jay: That is fine, if you have faith in something, that is your right, but that belief cannot be translated into law or forced on anyone, it is your own personal faith
The bible is truth to YOU
John: You knew the truth at one time, now you don't, you are being misled, all because of a fucking movie..
no one if forcing anything
is
Jay: Yes you are, you want Christian "values" enacted into law and schools
John: or maybe you faked it all those years
values such as?
don't kill babies..guilty as charged
Jay: I truly believed everything, but that was because I was raised in a Christian household. If I were raised Jewish or Islamic or Hindu or bhuddist I would believe those things. You cannot argue that.
John: the government and schools are forcing their so called values on Christians..
Jay: If a baby is abortec, it was part of God's plan.
*aborted
John: that is bullshit
Jay: So Gods plan is bullshit?
John: no... that abortion is his plan
Jay: It was his plan, because it happened/happens.
Or was I lied to?
John: it happens because of evil doers in this world...he gave us free will
you are being lied to now, by satanb
Jay: How does free will and god having a plan for everything make sense?!?!?!?
If I am being lied to by Satan, that is God's plan.
John: His plan gave us free will...He didn't want to goive Salvation to everyone without us having to work for it
Jay: Omg... Then what about the great flood? God decided to kill every animal and human except for a few... He blatantly acknowledged he made a mistake/had regrets.
John: No...he never makes mistakes..animals have no soul. Being dead or alive is nothing for them
Jay: Why would he make humans "just to see" if they would randomly pledge their allegiance to him? And then "start over" with the best ones. It makes absolutely no sense at all.
John: He punished those who went against him
Jay: So god punishes us now? I was told god does not punish us while on earth, only in the afterlife. I was lied to, according to you.
John: He gave us life so we would have a chance to be in heaven..his love foir us
Not now, then,
So god changed his mind?!?!?!??! Wtf
John: never mind
Jay: If he truly loved us, we would all go to heaven. I would never send someone I loved to hell. Never, no matter what they did.
Never mind means you hm have no rebuttal and I win the argument.
John: So we all get the same reward...the killers, thieves, rapists,..why follow laws then
Jay: Oops, ignore the 'hm.'
John: No means our argument is circular, going nowhere
Jay: So your relationship with God is the only thing keeping you from murdering, stealing and raping?!?!?!
John: Of course not. If not for the 10 commandments, there are some that I would like to be dead,
Jay: The Ten Commandments say nothing about rape. Go rape whoever you want.
John: it does say something about adultery, rape is adultry
Jay: No it's not... Adultery involves a married person. The bible actually says if you rape a woman you should marry her.
John: Adultry is sex outside of marriage.
Jay: No one has ever given that definition, please!!!!!!! Not even in the Bible!!!!!!! So when I was created it was adultery?
I will let her know.
Jay Luebbers: You really believe the Noah's ark story in the bible is literally true?
John Luebbers: Yes. Noah was real and so was his boat. The flood was very real.
Jay: What about the collecting of the male and female of every animal species part?
John: yes
Jay: If God was as perfect as he said he was, he would have never needed to destroy everything and start over. It is such an oxymoron.
John: He gave us free will. He also is a vengefull God. Man disobeyed him. There was a consequence. Death by water. Will happen again. Fire next time.
Jay: I was always told as a child that God does not punish you while you are on Earth, that is left for judgement in the afterlife. Was I lied to?
John: No, I believe that to be true. One day life on earth will end for all of us. Then the judgements begin.
Jay: But the great flood gave judgement to everyone on earth except Noah and his family... God delivered physical judgement to people who were on earth... How does that correlate with your belief that god does not judge on Earth?!?!??!?
John: That was before Christ died. We were judged and punished here on earth. eg. Adam and Eve. Sodom and Ghomora. Death is not judgement, nor punishment. That comes after death.
Jay: So god changed his mind???
John: Do you grill the others who believe as I do? Such as your siblings? Mom? her entire family?
No, God has had a plan from the get go.
Jay: Nope. I wish, though.
John: Why do you wish?
Jay: But the whole point of the flood was that god 'screwed up' so he had to start over. If god were as perfect as the bible said he is, the flood would never had to happen. He is a sadomasochist who has no value for human life.
Why do I wish? Because I feel like everyone in my family was indoctrinated and brainwashed
John: That would be Hitler, and certain Muslims, not God. Umm, I believe it is you who is being brainwashed. Tell them that then.
Jay: Even your sisters told me they believed the old testament was just made up stories. Have never forgotten that.
John: Abortionists have no value for human life.
You are right..they do believe that, saddens me...
Jay: If god had value for human life, he would not let innocent people suffer and die. If the god of the bible is real, he is an asshole.
John: now THAT saddens me.
I have no answers as to why God lets good people die. His plan. Which I have faith in.
death is a reward for believers
Jay: Faith = believing in something with no proof. You are entitled to believe that but it is as ridiculous as believing that there are leprechauns. Only based on old books, not proof.
John: Our existence here on earth is proof.
Jay: If death is such a reward, then why do you go to a doctor? Why have medicine? Everyone should just die.
John: Believing in the big bang theory requires more faith than believing in God
We all are afraid of death.
Not all who die will get rewarded withn heaven..
Jay: It's called a theory for a reason... It's a theory, there is no wAy to know how everything happened or why. To believe a boom written by humans 70 years after anything they wrote about actually happened is idiotic. The only reason people believe it is because they were indoctrinated as children... If you had been born in Afghanistan you would be a Muslim, as fervent in your beliefs as you are now.
John: Not all born in Muslim countries are Muslim. many are Christian.
Why do you participate in Easter and Xmas celebrations? That is hypocritical.
Jay: To not upset my family. And because there is a lot of good food.
Hypocritical? Maybe. But I have no choice if I want to maintain relationships with people I care about.
John: But you put up xmas lights and a tree right?
You can maintain. They will never abandon you
Jay Luebbers
Nope, even if I did, it would be a social thing, not a religious thing. What matters is what I believe personally.
John: Well I see you dont care if you offend me
Jay: No, I don't. I guess I see you as an equal whom I'm not afraid to debate with. I think that is actually a compliment.
John: Well yes, it is...Almost as if Sheldon Cooper called me an equal.
Jay: Thanks for that. I complimented you and then you insulted me. Perfect.
John: How did I insult?
Jay: Because you compared me to Sheldon.
http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=zDHJ4ztnldQ
John: “Everyone who acknowledges me publicly here on earth, I will also acknowledge before my Father in heaven. But everyone who denies me here on earth, I will also deny before my Father in heaven. “Don’t imagine that I came to bring peace to the earth! I came not to bring peace, but a sword. ‘I have come to set a man against his father, a daughter against her mother, and a daughter-in-law against her mother-in-law. Your enemies will be right in your own household!’ “If you love your father or mother more than you love me, you are not worthy of being mine; or if you love your son or daughter more than me, you are not worthy of being mine. If you refuse to take up your cross and follow me, you are not worthy of being mine. If you cling to your life, you will lose it; but if you give up your life for me, you will find it. “Anyone who receives you receives me, and anyone who receives me receives the Father who sent me. (Matthew 10:32-40 NLT)
Above all, you must realize that no prophecy in Scripture ever came from the prophet’s own understanding, or from human initiative. No, those prophets were moved by the Holy Spirit, and they spoke from God. (2 Peter 1:20, 21 NLT)
All Scripture is inspired by God and is useful to teach us what is true and to make us realize what is wrong in our lives. It corrects us when we are wrong and teaches us to do what is right. God uses it to prepare and equip his people to do every good work. (2 Timothy 3:16, 17 NLT)
There's plenty more where that came from. Let me know if you want more.
Jay: Using the bible to prove anything or refute an argument is just as reliable as using the Koran or Dr. Seuss' books. Just for the record I do not believe there is no God, just that if the God of the Bible is the actual God, he is completely messed up and not worth any human devotion or worship.
John: Believe in a god other than God at your own peril. Have fun praying with the brainwashed on Sunday.
I watched 60 seconds of that video. Didnt waste anyomre of my time.
Jay: Being brainwashed is what religion is all about. If it weren't passed down to you via brainwashing you wouldn't believe it either.
Alright, then. Nice knowing you.
John: You are very wrong.. I resent you sayig I brainwashed the 3 of yo. Liar.
Jay: I don't blame you. You were brainwashed and passed that down. Not your fault.
John: arogant ass
Jay: I'm not being arrogant... You deny any fallibility of the bible... But also taught us that God does not judge or punish us while we are in earth, which is obviously wrong if you read the Bible. God murdered millions of people in the Bible. He decided he made mistakes even though he said he was omniscient and all powerful. He is the arrogant ass.
John: Millions? How do yo figre? He is indeed , infalible. Maybe 100s died in the flood.
Jay: I don't care how many hundreds or thousands of people or animals it was. If he was so perfect he would not have created such horrible people, and apparently such land animals that deserved to die, he should have never given them life in the first place. What an asshole. If God loved us and was so powerful, he would have murdered the devil. No arguing that. I thought you said quit wasting your time? Then don't respond.
John: i said the video was a waste of my time. Not our discusions. We made God very angry. He gave us all free will. Judgements before the death of Christ is very different after death.
Jay: I'm sorry, if god gave us free will, then prayer is pointless. Why pray for change when god has already planned everything?!
John: I wish I had exact answers..I dont. God is a mystery sometimes. You seem very angry.
Jay: I don't have exact answers either. What makes me angry is that societal and political policies are based on a religion that doesn't have exact answers. Anyone is free to believe what they wish, including you and I respect that and your beliefs, as long as it does not infringe on the rights of others. That has not been the case. It has been getting better, but our forefathers' insistence on separation of church and state has had a tough time incorporating it's way into society and government.
John: the forefathers did not insist on it...those words are not in the constitution. It was in a letter wirtten by Thomas Jefferson...How has Christianity, in the USA, infringed on anyones rights?
Jay: In so many ways I can't even can't describe... Our nation was founded on freedom of religion.... But if your religion was not Christianity you were fucked... Women couldn't vote until 1921... Blacks and whites couldn't marry because of bible arguments..... Gays for the same reason!!
John: I never said all goverment policies made sense. I do not see other religions in this country being persecuted... to the contrary
A religion not being persecuted is way different than a religion being promoted. You didn't address my arguments at all.
John: Christianity is not being promoted. How do you figure it is.
Jay: Women couldn't vote, blacks and whites couldn't marry, gays can't marry, all three of those debated to the ground by Christians basing their arguments off of the bible.
John: Gays can marry now.
Jay: And women can vote now and interracial couples can marry now. What changed? The bible didn't change, but people during each time fervently argued the bible was against it.
John:Society has changed.
Some people are hard headed.
Religion is a non factor in governmnet policies
Jay: If society has changed, so then the rules of the Bible have changed???
John: No. The Bible has remained constant.
How society feels toward certain isses has changed.
Jay: And that includes you?
John: Some , not all
Accepting is more the proper term
Some things are fait accompli...
Jay: Well that is hypocritical then. things were preached to me and drilled into my brain as a child, and then one day people decide to change their minds. You should be following the bible word for word and staying steadfast in your beliefs and opinions. Anything other than that makes you a hypocrite and against the bible.
John: sarcasm
Jay: Not sarcasm at all... Wtf?
Never mind. Don't even reply. Let's just call it a stand-still. I brought up so many questions you never answered and you diverted my attention by bringing up something else. I want to be done. Not because I don't have the energy or knowledge, but because it hurts me to argue with you about something like this. Think it's something better left to people who are not family
John: I didnt see it as argueing insomuch as a spirited discussion. If i didnt answer a question it is becavse I didnt have a good answer. I try to be straight up. Have fun on Sunday.
Jay: Ok, well then I respect that. But knowing you shared things with my mother and I have no idea what you told her makes me uneasy about continuing. Because I have to admit I enjoy the debate, but not so much I'm willing to jeopardize my relationship with my mother.
John: That will never happen. Her love for yo is vnconditional..as it shovld be.
Jay: I know that, but would expect that conversations with you were kept just between you and I.
John: I am concertned abovt yovr beliefs..I shared my concerns
Jay: Then this is over.
I'm concerned about your beliefs but not telling anyone about it.
John: The same beliefs that all of yovr family members have.
Jay: Means nothing. Billions of people believe in Hinduism and Judaism and Islam and Buddhism. Why are their beliefs any more significant than Christians'? They were all raised to believe what they believe by their parents.
John: My point is, who would yo express concerns too?
Jay: If you were not raised with your family and were born in Japan instead, you would be a bhuddist, arguing your side with me as fervently as you are as a Christian. You cannot possibly deny that.
John: I do not deny that. Alot of Japanese have converted to Christianity.
Jay: And a lot of Christians have converted to bhuddism.
John: I wovldnt say alot. Too bad for them
Jay: Heh sure. Anyways, I wouldn't express my concerns to anyone, because it would fall on deaf ears. There are millions of people concerned with the extremist religious views of others. Nothing can be done about it except fostering free thought. If someone wants to believe in a religion because they decided to as an adult, and their beliefs did not infringe on anyone's rights or influence law or education, the it is their right and I would stand up for them.
This country was founded on the belief that anyone is free to believe whatever they believe. But the one thing we all believe in and have a right to is freedom and justice, which is devoid of any religion.
John: I respect that Jay. In my opinion education, especially higher education, dampens free thought.
Jay: That is a really broad brush to paint. Any kind of education applies to that? Or just the education that you believe in? What about Sunday school? That was an education forced on me, which was anything but free thought.
What about education on how to create a fire or cook a meal or card iron? That dampens free thought?
*cast
John: As I said, mostly higher ed. The college professers brainwash the students into believing their point of view. Sunday School wasnt supposed to be a free thought zone. The purpose was to teach Christians more about our faith.
Jay: The last two sentences you said sum up everything I have said that is a problem with the Christian faith. And every other faith. They all practice indoctrination.
John: Learning the word of God is never a bad thing.
Jay: Unless it's Allah? Or Yahweh? Or Bhuddah? Or Zeus? Or Aphrodite? Or Horus?
Horus was worshiped in Egypt 1,000 years before Jesus, and his story is 95% exactly the same as Jesus's.
John: Thats not for me, but to each their own. The resurrection of Christ is a story also?
Jay: What do you think? A story from 1,000 years prior of the son of god who was crucified and resurrected on the third day is just a coincidence that the same story happened with Jesus?
And not only those similarities but many more? Read about the similarities between Horus and Jesus, google it.
John: hmmm..I will
Depends on which version of Horus yo choose to believe. There are many.
Men, desperate to validate their worldviews, made up, it seems, parts of the story to fit their opinion that the Bible is a myth. The accounts of Jesus, his birth, life, death, and resurrection have not changed. Or differed.
Jay: And neither have Horus's. And his story has not been translated and re-translated through multiple languages, changing the meanings. And into different versions to 'change with the times.' I.e king James, NIV, the living bible, NRSV, the message, the new american bible, etc. which all depict different versions of the Jesus story.
And they have changed. They differ between Matthew, Mark, Luke and John, even in the original King James Version.
John: different translations dont change the facts. You have read all these versions?
Jay: Have you?
John: No..
Jay: Also different translations do change the facts. In earlier versions when talking about Sodom it was about rapists, then in the NIV it was changed to 'homosexuals' as if they were they same thing.
John: the james version refers to men wanting to have sex with men in Sodom right before God destroys the city
With the angels
John: they say to Abraham..where are the men so we can have relations with them
Jay: The story is about rape, not whether people are hetero or homosexual
John: bth versions are pretty much the same...there wasnt a change to suit someones agenda
Jay: Omg... Yes there was. So do you believe the story of sodom and gommorah was about how homosexuality is wrong?
John: No. The bible is not specific about the sins committed..
Jay: OMg. Then how do you know what sins are???
John: I meant sins committed in Sodom ad Ghamora
Jay: OmG. Read what you just said. Do you follow the ten commandments?
John: and xmas was originally a pagan celebration
Jay: Exactly... And the Jesus story was originally about Horus.... And several other gods at the time. The movie 'zeitgeist' changed my life.
John: All yov believe is based on a movie> I ddnt see anything on Horvs that leads me to believe the story is the basis for Christ.. Yov are pvtting alot of faith in a movie...very dangerovs...Are yov trying to convince me yov are right?
do yov believe in the 9-11 conspiracies?
Jay: No... I don't believe in the 9/11 conspiracies, though I also don't not believe in them either. I don't trust our politicians whether republican or democrat. I think it's a sham. I believe 9/11 was either a random event or a planned event by the government, there is no way that I could personally know enough truths to believe in either.
John: I agree...I have zero trvst in ovr government...some things abovt 911 d
dont add vp
my yew doesnt operate
Jay: But when george bush jr. Was our president, you had absolute faith in him, no?
John: no..not 100%..he was a member of scvll and bones at yale..a secret, somesay demonic grovp
didnt trvst his dad at all
Jay: Well I will give you that... But my mom and siblings posted so many posts about W 2008
I think the whole political system is so corrupt it doesn't matter who you vote for...
John: yovr mom didnt delveinto things mvch..what do yovr sibs vnderstnd abovt things?
Jay: What you and her have educated them on, that is what they believe.
John: I agrre on yivr last point..
Jay: And that belief is that the republican candidate is for God and the democrats are against God
John: I didnt edvcate them on the things I really believe.they were too yovng to vnderstand
I dont exactly elieve that...some Dems are Xtians..some Reps are not
Jay: Exactly... But they shared your beliefs anyways, because that was all they knew
John: Mom was aware ofwhat i thovght..
bvt she tends to believe in the 2 party system still
Jay: As as her and your children. I love her so much I am not willing to blame her for any of their beliefs... They were drilled into her as a child. It almost makes me love her more.
But just because your parents taught you things as a child does not mean they are right.
John: she shovldnt be blamed.. her grandparents were a little over the top
of covrse not..not everything I believe..or she be;lives is right..
Jay: I will agree, but according to you anyone who practices what is in the bible is not over the top, and that is what they did. Either the bible is 100% true and you should believe and follow everything it says, or it's not true at all. You can't cherry pick things you believe.
John: gtrandma marion scared me sometimes...The bible is 100% trve...I dont live my life as if i believe that
Jay: Why not then? If it's 100% true the you should love your life that way.
*then
*live
John: yov are correct..bvt, I have fallenshort..as hae mostpeople
Jay: I don't believe the bible is 100% true. Do you?
John: yes
Jay: Then you need to read the Bible. Again.
John: havenever read mvch of it..I do need to..
Jay: I will talk to you after that.
John: may be awhile
Jay: That's fine with me.
John: Ican tell yov that nothing will change..
Jay: You'd think though after 50 years you'd have at least read the Bible once
John: bts and pieces...it is qvite boring to read
have yov?
Jay: Wow... And yes, I have read the while bible. Twice. I don't remember specific verses or chapters, though. It is a lot. I have Grandma Marion's Bible, which I feel guilty and thankful for at the same time,
John: why gvilty?
Jay: Because I don't believe in everything it says. I loved her and love my grandma carol for giving it to me, but feel it should have gone to a true believer.
John: They wovld mvch prefer that yov hve it.
Jay: I do treasure it. But it will not change my beliefs. I think I will give it to one of Sam's children's one day.
John: He wovl appreciate that
Jay: I respect his and Laura's and my morher's beliefs... I will never do anything to harm that.
*mother's... Ugh
I have my own beliefs, that there is a God but he is nothing like the murderous, jealous tyrant that is epicted in the Bible.
But that is my own belief, nothing to enforce on anyone else.
John: How is yovr God?
Jay: How is my god? I don't understand the question.
John: If not jealovs, vengefvl, angry...then what is he ?
Jay: None of those things.... How can God be loving, omniscient and have a plan for everything, but also vengeful, jealous and angry? It's an oxymoron.
and tell me how you justify anything in this video, it is all in the bible, which you believe to be absolute truth - and don't give me the 'quit wasting my time' argument and just watch it
http://youtu.be/PP0bLdOplyk
John: This video is shit...garbage.... You didn't answer my question about what your god is like. After Christ died some things in the old testament are no longer true. Ask your mom , she has better answers. God , is indeed, loving. He sacrificed his son, so we could have a path to heaven. No truer love
He was angry because he loved us so much. Indifference is the opposite of love.
Jay: If things from the Old Testament are no longer "true" then why do you believe them?!? I.e Noah's ark?!? Also, if you had watched the video, Jesus have instructions on how to treat slaves... Wtf?!?!?
John: a video made by an atheist is not a source I trust
Some old testament laws...common Jay, you are smarter thn that
Jay: Does not answer the questions, read the damn bible, it's all there
John: show me the verses
Jay: Also if god is angry, it's his whole fault, everything that happens is because GOD PLANNED IT right? Why is he angry with his own plan?
The verses were stated in the video
John: I don't trust the video
ask your mom if you want to know
Jay: The video uses the bible as a source and you trust the bible
That is a cop out because you don't have an answer
John: a video made by an ahtiest is a piece of fucking shit
You are too afraid of her
Jay: Even if it's the truth?
John: prove to me its the truth
Jay: I CAN! Read the bible!
John:Are you trying to convince me 100s of millions are wrong?
Jay: Yep... Hundreds of millions believe in the Islam god and Judaism and Hinduism, more than Christians. And you think they're all wrong.
John: they are..
there is only 1 right...
Jay: Then there you go. Just because hundreds of millions of people believe in something gives it no credibility.
John: zero
dis God at your own peril Jay.
Jay: You only believe what you believe because you were born to a Christian family. If you had been born in India you would not believe in the Christian God.
John: A lot of I ndians are Christians
Jay: That has no argument, if you were born into an Indian Hindu family, you would be Hindu and just as fervent in your beliefs.
John: I would be wrong..and condemned
Jay: But you would not think that.
And it wouldn't be your fault.
John: doesn't matter what I would think
Jay: Exactly...!!!!!
John: the truth is the truth no matter whether I believed it or not
Jay: You have no proof that your religion is the "right one."
John: Just a faith...which is enough
Jay: Exactly!!! You cannot claim you know the "truth"!!!!
John: the Bible is the truth, Jesus Christ is the truth
Jay: That is fine, if you have faith in something, that is your right, but that belief cannot be translated into law or forced on anyone, it is your own personal faith
The bible is truth to YOU
John: You knew the truth at one time, now you don't, you are being misled, all because of a fucking movie..
no one if forcing anything
is
Jay: Yes you are, you want Christian "values" enacted into law and schools
John: or maybe you faked it all those years
values such as?
don't kill babies..guilty as charged
Jay: I truly believed everything, but that was because I was raised in a Christian household. If I were raised Jewish or Islamic or Hindu or bhuddist I would believe those things. You cannot argue that.
John: the government and schools are forcing their so called values on Christians..
Jay: If a baby is abortec, it was part of God's plan.
*aborted
John: that is bullshit
Jay: So Gods plan is bullshit?
John: no... that abortion is his plan
Jay: It was his plan, because it happened/happens.
Or was I lied to?
John: it happens because of evil doers in this world...he gave us free will
you are being lied to now, by satanb
Jay: How does free will and god having a plan for everything make sense?!?!?!?
If I am being lied to by Satan, that is God's plan.
John: His plan gave us free will...He didn't want to goive Salvation to everyone without us having to work for it
Jay: Omg... Then what about the great flood? God decided to kill every animal and human except for a few... He blatantly acknowledged he made a mistake/had regrets.
John: No...he never makes mistakes..animals have no soul. Being dead or alive is nothing for them
Jay: Why would he make humans "just to see" if they would randomly pledge their allegiance to him? And then "start over" with the best ones. It makes absolutely no sense at all.
John: He punished those who went against him
Jay: So god punishes us now? I was told god does not punish us while on earth, only in the afterlife. I was lied to, according to you.
John: He gave us life so we would have a chance to be in heaven..his love foir us
Not now, then,
So god changed his mind?!?!?!??! Wtf
John: never mind
Jay: If he truly loved us, we would all go to heaven. I would never send someone I loved to hell. Never, no matter what they did.
Never mind means you hm have no rebuttal and I win the argument.
John: So we all get the same reward...the killers, thieves, rapists,..why follow laws then
Jay: Oops, ignore the 'hm.'
John: No means our argument is circular, going nowhere
Jay: So your relationship with God is the only thing keeping you from murdering, stealing and raping?!?!?!
John: Of course not. If not for the 10 commandments, there are some that I would like to be dead,
Jay: The Ten Commandments say nothing about rape. Go rape whoever you want.
John: it does say something about adultery, rape is adultry
Jay: No it's not... Adultery involves a married person. The bible actually says if you rape a woman you should marry her.
John: Adultry is sex outside of marriage.
Jay: No one has ever given that definition, please!!!!!!! Not even in the Bible!!!!!!! So when I was created it was adultery?
I will let her know.
