Does it make sense to speak of "Universal Consciousness" or "Universal Intelligence"?

[Rampant.A.I.]

[bennyboy]

On the contrary, as many animals display the same sort if consciousness, you haven't explained why it's unnecessary, nor why evolutionary psychology is highly accurate at explaining behavior.

Simply, you are arguing that less complex algorithms are better adaptations to the environment

I don't think you're on the same page as me with regard to how the term consciousness is being used. I'm talking about the existence, rather than the non-existence of qualia.

Given that qualia are only the subjective awareness of the "algorithms" you're talking about, the elephant in the room isn't about comparative bioligy-- it's about why qualia exist rather than not-- since there's no good reason a brain (or any other machine) couldn't process any amount of information without having subjective experience about it.

[Hegel]

I guess we both agree that the theory needs to mature a bit more until it's to be taken seriously... so I'll reply only to a few things.

Ok. Let me just try to clarify where I think we disagree and agree.

We certainly agree there is not enough evidence for the theory; it might be false, but it also might be (in principle) true.

But we seem to disagree at least on couple of crucial things.

1) You give much lower subjective prob. value on the possibility that the theory might turn out to be true than I do.
2) You think the theory is not "mature enough" (even if you don't really understand it, as you admit) where I think it is really no better nor worse than its alternatives.
3)You think its should not be taken "seriously" (first you ridiculed it openly, now you seem to have slightly more moderate attitude), whereas I think it should.


Now, my point was and is and has been and will be simply and only this: in such a situation as we are with consciousness, its genuine mystery (not some pseud-mystery like astrology), it is un-ethical not to take all options that make sense (and Orc OR certainly makes sense, however miserable the evidence for it were) seriously.

As we're dealing with real mystery, none of the competing theories have real evidence, and practically everyone working on the field agree at least on this point.

In such situation the recourse to "intuitions" or "common sense" is really only an euphemism for dogmi; if no-one takes a theory seriously (and when you ridicule it, you aim precisely at that), it will not be researched; but when a theory might really, even if it is not seen as the most probable one, be true, this would be bad option; thus, one must encourage also the research of those theories, which one finds less attractive which is to say, take them seriously. a circle: there is no evidence for T, and because there is no evidence, it is not seriuos, and as it is not serious, no evidence should be searched for it, and as no evidence is searched, if T is correct, that will never be found out.
=A bad outcome.

I even once had to solve it for a Hydrogen atom... yeah, every grad student's dream!

I don't know how to build up S's equation for complex systems (and the Penrose model deals with quantum gravity which I understand nothing on mathematical level and I guess he gives some sort of geometrical form to the equation) ... but it can be done as you know.

Anyway, the major evidence for the theory is precisely that the original major counter-argument of Tegmark by which it was debunked in 90's based of decohenrence for the theory has turned out to be false. That is proves that the theory does make sense in the light of current understanding of physics.

inductionist fallscy. (And you have no idea what that means)

No, and I don't care.

Well, its a real epistemological fallacy. Not rocket science, but it's easy to make mistakes on these things.

Just because the man is smart, doesn't mean he's correct.

That's right. As I said, I do not believe his gödelian argument is correct. Yet, I find it, again, a matter of ethics that I grant him the chace of possibly correcting my criticism, if there is some blind spot in it, etc.

Like I said on day one, he's biased.

Might be the case, but don't forget that so are coputer-scientists, who love the idea of hard AI, neuro-physiologists, who have faith in the "weteware", etc. Everyone is "biased" on the field.

He may be correct, to some extent... But the theory is not tested enough to become the mainstream notion.

Now, I think we have reached the point at which we have some sort of understanding what we disagree on.

But I would like to make a question: which one of the mainstream theories (soft AI is, I guess the most mainstream) then has some "real evidence" and what that evidence is?
That something is "mainstream" does not mean it does not have burden of proof. I asked Cato this question, but he did not answer. So, are you accusing me of "creationism" because of this skepticism? I think that's a false accusation: right accusation would be: I am like a lamarcist, for I am not some dualist denying that brains and neurons &c are extremely crucial. That would be like creationism! But lamarcism ... that was like "there might be more to it than you darwinists (although Darwin himself was a lamarcist) think", and that's also my position with the "orthodox" neuro-cognitive theories (as corresponded with darwinism). And how is happening to Lamarcism? That seems to be a happy ending now. But for decades ... it was according to the mainstream "non-sense", "falsified", etc.

[pocaracas]

[Chas]

[Cato]

The one question materialists never answer is this: "What does consciousness actually do?"

Discriminates stimuli, reports information, monitors internal states, directs behavior and experiences the aforementioned.

[Neo-Scholastic]

The one question materialists never answer is this: "What does consciousness actually do?"

Discriminates stimuli, reports information, monitors internal states, directs behavior and experiences the aforementioned.

Really? Where in the chain of physical causes does consciousness insert itself? What gap does awareness, as awareness, fill?

[Rampant.A.I.]

What a silly question. Santa Claus and his magical elves sneak into your bedroom every night, and fill your brain with consciousness that lasts until tomorrow night, allowing the body/vessel/consciousness to engage in magical thinking, and conclude that brain activity ceasing with brain death must necessarily mean the mind flys away in an invisible rocket ship to orbit Pluto and obtain immortality.

---

Discriminates stimuli, reports information, monitors internal states, directs behavior and experiences the aforementioned.

Really? Where in the chain of physical causes does consciousness insert itself? What gap does awareness, as awareness, fill?

"You don't know; therefore God."

[Neo-Scholastic]

Not quite...you don't know therefore you have nothing that supports your conviction that mind is an emergent property. In fact, you don't know because your materialist theories are incoherent promissory notes.

[Chas]

Not quite...you don't know therefore you have nothing that supports your conviction that mind is an emergent property. In fact, you don't know because your materialist theories are incoherent promissory notes.

So you are justified in just making some shit up and saying you're right.

OK, got it.