Common self contradiction of the religious

[orangebox21]

This is, of course, ignoring the fact that an eternal being with no peers would have no need for language.

It in fact couldn't have one, as a private language is an impossibility.

Perhaps luckily, the Christian doesn't have to wrestle over the 'private language possibility vs. impossibility' given that the Biblical God is three distinct person's in one God. The eternal being has peers: The Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit.

I can see this being used to state that god transcends the universe, since he creates the universe. And in this case we might say that god transcends time, since time is a property of the universe. Then we have to wonder which plane of existence god 'lives' in, and why time would not be a property of that plane of existence.

Another astute point and one I have no answer to. I'm reaching beyond the limits of my understanding of physics but I believe it's been observed, or at least theorized, that as the speed of light is reached time slows significantly to the point that time may even stop. Maybe if a person could approach the speed of light he/she could offer some observations about what a state of timelessness would be like.

The concept of eternity going back seems nonsensical too, but it must be real for the universe to exist.

Why must it be real for the universe to exist?

If we step outside of the universe, how would we mark time?

If there is no time, there would be no way to mark it.

If god decides to ponder a question, has time passed while he pondered the question? Is there no way to place god's actions on a timeline that extends past the creation of the universe?

I think no and no.

How do you justify making the assertion that a 'non-material entity' exists, since you insist that it is impossible to examine or study it in any way?

When did I say that we can't study or examine a non-material entity in any way?

If this god affects the material world in any way whatsoever, from answered prayers

How is the act of answering a prayer physically measured?

to special creation,

What do you mean by special creation?

then those effects fall squarely in the purview of science. As AronRa would say, every time this god reaches down into the material plane it ought to pull its arm out dripping with physics.

I don't understand what AronRa is getting at here. Please explain.

Conversely, if this god doesn't affect the material world, then it might just as well not exist at all (even assuming it does anyway).

Why not?

So which is it: a god which has to leave detectable, measurable evidence of its existence, or one which is indistinguishable from no god at all?

If these are my only two options, I choose the first option. Though understand I am making a distinction between physical evidence and detectable and measurable evidence. Are the universal laws of logic detectable? Yes. Are they physical? No. Are they measurable? No. Do they exist? Yes. Not everything that exists can be physically detectable and measurable.

[Rampant.A.I.]

It in fact couldn't have one, as a private language is an impossibility.

Perhaps luckily, the Christian doesn't have to wrestle over the 'private language possibility vs. impossibility' given that the Biblical God is three distinct person's in one God. The eternal being has peers: The Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit.

El, El's wife, and El's son Ba'al = Elohim.

The word is identical to the usual plural of el meaning gods or magistrates, and is cognate to the 'l-h-m found in Ugaritic, where it is used for the pantheon of Canaanite gods, the children of El and conventionally vocalized as "Elohim".

http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Elohim

http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dissociat...y_disorder

[Minimalist]

The eternal being has peers: The Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit.

The dumbest part of jesusism.

[Tonus]

The concept of eternity going back seems nonsensical too, but it must be real for the universe to exist.

Why must it be real for the universe to exist?

The consensus seems to be that either god or the universe is eternal, which is to say that they always existed in some form. Thus we would expect that no matter how far back we travel in time, there is always a universe or always a god.

I guess the real question I'm wondering is: is there an environment that contains all that could possibly be? Does the universe exist within some other construct? If the universe is expanding, what is it expanding into?

[archangle]

really? they are people. Thats what you have shown.

Oh right, I keep forgetting us atheists have the real truth ... wow!

[Cyberman]

We atheists. Not us atheists. I die a little inside every time I see that.

[Wyrd of Gawd]

The eternal being has peers: The Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit.

The dumbest part of jesusism.

Why doesn't the God and Jesus characters have tassels on their clothes?

[Tonus]

Why doesn't the God and Jesus characters have tassels on their clothes?

And why is the bird firing repulsor rays out of its armpits?

[Freedom of thought]

You certainly could assert that. Given that the universe now exists in a state of time, how did time come into existence?

Because time could be an emergent property of the universe. Most scientists think the 'arrow of time' is simply due to energy/entropy. Saying the universe existed in the 'timeless' state with all of its energy content, in which time emerged is consistent with everything we know. Sort of like Hawking's no boundary proposal, there are physical models like this. There is no point in time in which the universe came to be. Time had a beginning, but the universe didn't.

This is just one model though, there are many. I think the beginning/eternal concept doesn't matter. The universe can come to be without a cause having a beginning, or it could be eternal. I don't deny 99% of these scientific theories, because I don't have a bet on a gap in current physical models for a magic man to work. As a theist, you must be incredibly closed minded to all current cosmology, because it goes against all your beliefs about god creating the universe. But this type of bet against science failing is foolish, because science will win every time, as it has in the past.

I'm not sure I fully understand what you mean by "Infinite." To say that God can do anything we can imagine is not Biblically supported. The Bible states He cannot lie, and He cannot deny Himself. I would also say that He couldn't cause Himself to not exist nor create a rock too heavy for himself to lift.

If you are saying god has infinite power (omnipotent), that means god is infinite, as with omniscience. If god is omniscient, he must have an infinite amount of knowledge if he is to be classified as an omnipotent being, due to the infinite amounts of quantum states, and the infinite amounts of digits of pi he must know in order to be all knowing. I never claimed god must be able to do something that is logically self contradictory, impossible, literally anything we can imagine, or against his own traits like lying.

To address the infinities can't exist assertion: Who has made this claim? Please explain how infinities can't exist.
To address the 'universe existing without a cause' line of reasoning: you're not understanding the argument. Go back and read post #18.

You made this claim by saying the universe can't be infinite. If you are willing to grant an infinite god, there is no reason you can't grant an infinite universe. Unless you don't claim god is infinite, in that case this thing is just a being, not a 'god'.

God created time and yet he transcends it (He is not held subject to it's properties) If I were to create a dinner plate I would transcend that dinner plate. Certainly the plate is not alive, yet I am. The plate cannot move yet I am able to. The plate cannot think nor reason yet I am able to do both. So just as I am able to transcend something I have created, so to God is able to transcend His.

How can a mind exist transcendent of space and time? Isn't time a requirement for a mind to be able to think? A timeless mind, is by its very nature non functional. If a mind exists transcendent of time, I hardly see how it would classify as a mind. A mind functions within time, one thought flows after another, I hardly see how a 'transcendent' mind would even work in the slightest. It seems to me, and incoherent concept. How could this kind of mind even do anything, like think, and let alone create a universe? How does a mind create a universe anyway, have any evidence of this process? Sounds incredibly far fetched to me.

The statement 'If God is timeless (then) He can't be old' is what is known as a hypothetical syllogism. It is a hypothetical statement assumed for the sake of determining what conclusions can be logically inferred if the statement is true.

Secondly in asking for scientific evidence to prove God you make a categorical mistake. Science is the study of the material world. God is spirit. How can the study of the material world explain a non-material entity? This would be like me asking you to prove that ultraviolet light exists by using only your eyes. Or, answer 2+2=? using colors. Not all light is detectable from the human eye, numbers are used to answer math questions and colors are used to answer the visible light spectrum questions.

If god makes no impact on the physical world, this being may as well not even exist to us. If god exists, and wants his presence known, we should be able to study the physical world and find evidence of his existence. And meanwhile not a shred of evidence is found for the existence of god in science, in fact most scientists are now atheists. No ones asking to 'observe' god, or something like that. As for the 'timelessness', we have no evidence minds can exist transcendent of a physical sub straight, let alone a WORKING mind transcendent of time. As for light, that doesn't exist transcendent of time, it works within it, light is only constant WITHIN time regardless of the observers frame of reference.

And if god really existed, why are you on here arguing for his existence? Why do you have to prove anything if this being exists? Why doesn't he prove it right now to all of us and end the debate? And even with the debate, the god side has zero evidence for it.

[Minimalist]

Why doesn't the God and Jesus characters have tassels on their clothes?

Because then they would look like jews.



Can't have that.