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RE: Abortion is morally wrong
June 17, 2014 at 5:27 pm
(This post was last modified: June 17, 2014 at 5:29 pm by Jacob(smooth).)
OK, since you ignore my first question, try this one.
A woman has an ectopic pregnancy. If the fetus is left in situ, it ruptures, both die. Is it OK to "murder" the fetus to save the mother?
If the answer is no, you just killed my wife. If yes, well done, here's the bonus round.
Two people are in hospital beds after an accident. Both have multiple organ failures however one could be saved IF we kill the other and harvest the remaining organs. If we wait, they both die. Should we murder the one to save the other? And what is the difference?
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RE: Abortion is morally wrong
June 17, 2014 at 5:27 pm
Only if you believe that life is sacred... That's basically what it comes .
I have my doubts...
"Gods" law of the jungle has been in play for eons.
Morality in itself is a man made concept.
I'm on the fence, sorry... Good q though.
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RE: Abortion is morally wrong
June 17, 2014 at 5:31 pm
Calling abortion "murder" is what's morally wrong. It gives people control over another's body for arbitrary reasons, which is reprehensible in that it restricts another's freedom.
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RE: Abortion is morally wrong
June 17, 2014 at 5:33 pm
Thank you for the warm welcome, everyone! Unfortunately I can not eat cookies..I am allergic to gluten :/ I outlined my reasons for classifying fetus' as human beings in my first post and the following few posts. If and only if a fetus is a human being than abortion is murder. I am arguing that point. Beccs, the problem with your definition is it confuses human beings with their functionality instead of their ontology (what that thing actually is.) Not to mention the ethical issues that would result from such a view not even counting abortion.
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RE: Abortion is morally wrong
June 17, 2014 at 5:33 pm
(June 17, 2014 at 5:17 pm)Arthur123 Wrote: Esquilax, autonomy is never and should never trump the ethical consequences of allowing murder. Autonomy is good up until the point someone chooses to enact something immoral. Our justice system and all morality indeed, rests on this principle. The fact that it is not applied in the act of abortion I believe, is a gross injustice and ignorance on the topic. If a fetus is human than eliminating it is morally wrong and should not be allowed. The simple fact that it is using a women's body is a secondary fact.
Here's the thing: merely asserting that this is murder doesn't change the fact that the situation you're describing is actually something else. Is it murder to not donate an organ to someone that needs it? If your answer is no- and why shouldn't it be?- then neither is not allowing a fetus to live inside you.
You keep trying to wrench the conversation onto one track when the rest of us have already told you we disagree with your initial premise, and you seem incapable of defending it.
Quote:Secondly, I am moving from the starting point of objective morality due to the fact that if denied, this discussion has no merit. Autonomy, life, ect. have no value at all and murder would be morally acceptable. This is not relevant to the discussion my friend.
I have a human derived morality, determined from observations of the world, that also values life and autonomy. Don't mistake the morality you'd like there to be for the only kind of morality there could ever be. That's a different discussion, but please continue this one under the knowledge that the rest of us have functioning moral models that don't subscribe to the same tenets as yours.
Quote:Esquilax, aborting a human being infringes on their body as well. Albeit, in the most final and morally unacceptable way.
No, it simply stops the fetus from infringing on someone else. If someone breaks into your house, it's not against their autonomy for you to eject them from the premises and back onto the street.
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RE: Abortion is morally wrong
June 17, 2014 at 5:35 pm
(This post was last modified: June 17, 2014 at 5:41 pm by laikashuman.)
thank you for the abortion cookies they were feta-licious.
i don't plan to take after anyone as i don't know anyone on this forum and am usually not a follower in general. 
i believe if a fetus is legally considered a human being, then all sorts of crazy precedents can be opened up.
hate to be one of those people who immediately jump to "sex with ducks" when a topic like "gay marriage" comes up, but it does make me think of things like, "will individual eggs or sperm then be considered to have legal rights because of their potential for creation?" would a tumor? would individual cells? where do you draw the line?
morality is a man-made concept and so is the law. you have to take those two and form them based on what is best for society as a whole not just one group of people who happen to believe in the supernatural or believe that conception makes a sentient being.
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RE: Abortion is morally wrong
June 17, 2014 at 5:39 pm
(June 17, 2014 at 5:33 pm)Arthur123 Wrote: Thank you for the warm welcome, everyone! Unfortunately I can not eat cookies..I am allergic to gluten :/ I outlined my reasons for classifying fetus' as human beings in my first post and the following few posts. If and only if a fetus is a human being than abortion is murder. I am arguing that point. Beccs, the problem with your definition is it confuses human beings with their functionality instead of their ontology (what that thing actually is.) Not to mention the ethical issues that would result from such a view not even counting abortion.
Morality must in the end a functional artifice. Only through the obscuring veil of religion could it be made to seem to have, or deserve to have, any separate existence than what could be justified by its functionality in the context of human society.
So, why would a thing which is functional and only justifiable based on its functionality in human society ignore any definition which is also functional in context of human society, and resort instead to games of sementics?
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RE: Abortion is morally wrong
June 17, 2014 at 5:44 pm
kind of a question that garbled my brain trying to read it, but i THINK its a good question.
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RE: Abortion is morally wrong
June 17, 2014 at 5:44 pm
Arthur, please answer my question after my hypothetical:
I kidnap you
Chain you up in my basement
Then proceed to hook myself up to your kidneys to use them to filter my blood because mine don't work. I will die if I don't do this.
Is that right?
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RE: Abortion is morally wrong
June 17, 2014 at 5:45 pm
(This post was last modified: June 17, 2014 at 5:46 pm by laikashuman.)
i'd say it's wrong to use one life to benefit another life without the full and aware consult of the first life.
wow! thank you, you've given me a new way to explain why i am pro-choice.
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