Faith is a measure of irrationality

[ronedee]

So what -was- the word on that anyway? Did the hospital confirm to you that equipment materialized? Did you witness the materialization?

There was no vaporization, or cloud or smoke and thunder! The ER doctor who had said the machine that she needed was on loan, walked up to my family, and said :"the machine is in her room." and assumed, somehow it got back to the hospital and wasn't recorded as such in their inventory log. And also someone put it there who knew she needed it.

We really weren't concerned with "how" at the time.... or ever actually. We were just happy she was able to live.

---

Also, as a point of curiosity, what sorts of equipment do you imagine might be eligible for that sort of magical treatment. I'm guessing little things on wheels, defibs, ivs and the like. What about MRI's...do you think that god might have transported a few of those here and there? I only ask, because I think it would be impossible to miss something like that - even if you might miss something like a defib.

Did you read my post to Bad Wolf? It wasn't a typical machine needed. She had some kind of damage to her heart, and any "other" type of machine would've damaged her heart further.

This is killing me to talk about this! My mom ultimately passed 2 years later. And wasn't ever herself again after the heart attack. But I do cherish those last two years, and got closer to her than ever before.

[The Grand Nudger]

Yeah, I would be too, but in retrospect - it seems to have become a part of your "family mythology" at least as-told by you. Yeah? I mean, your mom was in a bad way, loaned machines can and are "unloaned" on a moments notice. Them's the breaks. You did just describe a plausible scenario that didn't actually involve a god doing any of the things you claimed that it did (but hey..that doesn't mean that god wasn't there). Is that plausible scenario what you think went down, in dry point of fact language? Or, if thats not coming across, when you say that god did these things, do you really mean something more along the lines of "god was there in all of these things...but for the grace of god go I" ?

On the point of equipment, if you need to stitch my eyebrows back together any other equipment isn;t going to help that. A bonesaw won;t stich my eyebrows together, so it;s unlikely that they would bring a bonesaw with them to stitch my eyebrows...I'm not sure what the type of equipment your mother needed in the narrative is supposed to signify. My question was more along the lines of "if god moves defibs, why not mri?" In your example, it was a very specific piece of equipment, so maybe god only moves the strange stuff?

(if it's too painful that's okay, there are plenty of other examples of this stuff in your life, right?)

[ronedee]

Yeah, I would be too, but in retrospect - it seems to have become a part of your "family mythology" at least as-told by you. Yeah? I mean, your mom was in a bad way, loaned machines can and are "unloaned" on a moments notice. Them's the breaks. You did just describe a plausible scenario that didn't actually involve a god doing any of the things you claimed that it did (but hey..that doesn't mean that god wasn't there). Is that plausible scenario what you think went down, in dry point of fact language? Or, if thats not coming across, when you say that god did these things, do you really mean something more along the lines of "god was there in all of these things...but for the grace of god go I" ?

I don't really know? I mean... we were in the ER chapel praying after they told us there was no hope. She was dying.

We come out of the chapel, and the doctor comes running up to us, and says she's going to live!

What would you think at that point?

[The Grand Nudger]

I would think "post hoc, ergo propter hoc" and refrain from concluding what you have. But ultimately, I didn't have to experience that, you did, so what I would do is meh. Did the above occur to you? What if you had been eating hotdogs (instead of praying)? Would you have concluded that the hotdogs performed this miracle?

[Mudhammam]

I'm not wearing green socks and I didn't get cancer today.

Therefore, green socks must cause cancer.

[ronedee]

I would think "post hoc, ergo propter hoc" and refrain from concluding what you have. But ultimately, I didn't have to experience that, you did, so what I would do is meh. Did the above occur to you? What if you had been eating hotdogs (instead of praying)? Would you have concluded that the hotdogs performed this miracle?

Would you be eating hotdogs with your mother dying in the other room? I guess so.... because that would be the last thing on my mind.

I'll try [not] praying the next time a family member is dying! And report back that indeed they died. Then maybe that should prove for ya there is a God?

Luke 16:27-31 “He answered, ‘Then I beg you, father, send Lazarus to my family, 28 for I have five brothers. Let him warn them, so that they will not also come to this place of torment.’
29 “Abraham replied, ‘They have Moses and the Prophets; let them listen to them.’
30 “‘No, father Abraham,’ he said, ‘but if someone from the dead goes to them, they will repent.’
31 “He said to him, ‘If they do not listen to Moses and the Prophets, they will not be convinced even if someone rises from the dead.’”

[Knowledge of God]

I'm not wearing green socks and I didn't get cancer today.

Therefore, green socks must cause cancer.

Green socks do not exist.

[Mudhammam]

I'm not wearing green socks and I didn't get cancer today.

Therefore, green socks must cause cancer.

Green socks do not exist.

Don't look now, evidence is being presented to the contrary!

[The Grand Nudger]

Would you be eating hotdogs with your mother dying in the other room? I guess so.... because that would be the last thing on my mind.

It might be the last thing on your mind but it's the first thing on your stomach. You ate something that day, and then later that day - something happened. You've decided that whatever you ate wasn't the cause - but theres no actual reason contained here to choose god over a hotdog. and this brings us to-

I'll try [not] praying the next time a family member is dying! And report back that indeed they died. Then maybe that should prove for ya there is a God?

Ronedee, it's not about proving to me that there is a god. You're under no such compulsion. I wouldn't wish that task on you. I'm interacting with you about a claim you made, a series of them really, each one alluding to the fact that they did not actually meet your own standards of evidence. This last one leaving the hotdog you didn't eat just as likely a reason for the event as your god -by your own reasoning. I'm just trying to help you refine your claims, practice your explanations. God is an important idea, wouldn't you agree, deserves a little respect? I maintain that your belief is not founded upon this fallacy any more than it was founded upon the last. I'm just trying to help you communicate that faith, that experience.

That scripture you decided to post is on just as shaky a ground as your narrative, btw. Utter bullshit right there- or were you trying to cast a magic spell?

[Knowledge of God]

Green socks do not exist.

Don't look now, evidence is being presented to the contrary!

Photoshop!