Life after death?

[Silver]

To say that there was absolutely no sacrifice is false because he was killed on the behalf of his cause. He was whipped, carried the cross, and died on it. He just wasn't thinking about how he was never going to fish again.
So this is more like a dad taking a bullet to the knee for his son, limping to a hospital, and having it yanked out with tweezers.

A true hero would not have taken it like a bitch. Rather, a true hero would have fought back and taught those idiots a lesson.

[Purplundy]

From carpenter to ultimate ruler of the universe. The greatest sacrifice ever.

Actually, in Christianity, he was always the ruler of the universe, and in 33AD, became the ultimate ruler of the universe who had nails driven into his appendages.

---

No, really it's more like getting his toe stepped on while pushing a clumsy drunk away from his kid then getting "steak and blowjob" day from his wife for being such a "hero"

I'm going to make this even simpler. Say that a dad takes a whipping and drags a hundred pounds through the city as public humiliation. Then, he has metal driven through his hands and feet, but isn't afraid that he's going to die and doesn't.
I refuse to drag this out with you; either you explain how the fear of dying is equivalent to losing a limb, or say that you just aren't a fan of the Jesus figure himself and stop trying to downplay what he allegedly did.

[The Grand Nudger]

I think many clergymen loose the literal beliefs but stay in the community and to feel like the shepherd. I'm probably making too much of this.

Just as a reference to experience - in no way indicative of anything beyond my experience. They do seem to. The catholicism of a priest at a catholic school, was, to me, very different than the catholicism of your average parishioner. Most of the priests I knew growing up were rational people with brilliant metaphoric or allegorical readings of scripture. Guys who didn't mind saying "it doesn't matter whether or not it happened - do you agree with the message?"

But maybe I got lucky. I hear alot of "old church" stories on this board, so clearly that's still around, still big.

[Purplundy]

Well then I have to push it if I'm to understand the shape of it (your faith). If the factuality of the resurrection is optional for you, what about an afterlife? Would an interpretation of heaven and hell which revolved around states of mind in the living rather than a perpetual extension of consciousness beyond the grave fit with your theology? If not, do you see it as a tenable position for anyone who wants to keep their seat under the Christian portion of the theist tent?

Ooh. Good one.
If the factuality of an afterlife affects anyone's life today, I don't think even Jesus would like that. I heard a story (from a priest, actually) about people who were told they were dying. Some were going to pray until it happened, some were going out on the town. A little girl sweeping an attic said she'd just keep doing what she was doing.
Sorry if this sounds preachy, but I believe that once we're gone, we continue to exist. Most theists do. How we continue to exist is up in the air. Is the angel-party heaven as supported as mine by the Bible? Yes. I personally just scrape the bare minimum from the angel-party heaven so I can make more sense to myself and to other people.

[Baqal]

@Purplundy
-I personally just scrape the bare minimum from the angel-party heaven so I can make more sense to myself and to other people.
What is it you scrape from the angel-party heaven so it can make sense to other people? Just wondering.

[Whateverist]

If the factuality of an afterlife affects anyone's life today, I don't think even Jesus would like that.

When I still had a seat under that tent I would have agreed with this. I don't think compliance based on ulterior motives would have ever be seen as worthy by a worthy god. For that matter it would still not be seen as worthy by anyone who is worthy, god or no god.

I heard a story (from a priest, actually) about people who were told they were dying. Some were going to pray until it happened, some were going out on the town. A little girl sweeping an attic said she'd just keep doing what she was doing.

Pretty Zen-ish, Catholic too? If you're not doing what you most want to do, it shouldn't take a death sentence to get you to do it.

Sorry if this sounds preachy, but I believe that once we're gone, we continue to exist. Most theists do. How we continue to exist is up in the air. Is the angel-party heaven as supported as mine by the Bible? Yes. I personally just scrape the bare minimum from the angel-party heaven so I can make more sense to myself and to other people.

The devil is in the details as to what it is about us which would continue after our physical demise. When you look at it, what we are in our subjective lives is pretty thin stuff even when we're alive. Whatever it is that turns a physical process into a personal experience is pretty mysterious. What makes it my personal experience is ubiquitous across individuals. This at least will continue after me just as well as it did in me. Wondering will go on, diaper changing, pain and pleasure will go on. And everywhere our incredible organisms will convert that into an experience of me. Me goes on.

[Ravenshire]

I'm going to make this even simpler. Say that a dad takes a whipping and drags a hundred pounds through the city as public humiliation. Then, he has metal driven through his hands and feet, but isn't afraid that he's going to die and doesn't.
I refuse to drag this out with you; either you explain how the fear of dying is equivalent to losing a limb, or say that you just aren't a fan of the Jesus figure himself and stop trying to downplay what he allegedly did.

I never claimed that "the fear of dying is equivalent to losing a limb."

If you can't see the difference between an actual sacrifice and a fake one, I can't help you. In the original analogy I made, the father is going to die and he knows it. He does it anyway. That is a sacrifice. Knowing that you're going to have a bad weekend and come out the other side in a better position and then doing it anyway is not the same thing.

Consider this:
Would you take a bullet (dead) for a child you didn't know?
Would you take a bullet (severely injured) for a child you didn't know?
Would you take a beating for a child you didn't know?
Would you take a major inconvenience for a child you didn't know?
Would you take a minor inconvenience for a child you didn't know?
These all involve a sacrifice of some kind, but add a reward to them and and the sacrifice is diminished. If the reward is great enough, only the first remains a sacrifice because you can't collect the reward. Jeebus was (allegedly) made co-ruler of the entire universe. That's one hell of a reward.

So yeah, jeebus had a bad weekend for your sins. Good on him, I guess.

[Purplundy]

@Purplundy
-I personally just scrape the bare minimum from the angel-party heaven so I can make more sense to myself and to other people.
What is it you scrape from the angel-party heaven so it can make sense to other people? Just wondering.

If you read a few threads ago, you would have seem me arguing this out.
The impact of every human being on society is permanent and remains after they die.

---

Knowing that you're going to have a bad weekend and come out the other side in a better position and then doing it anyway is not the same thing.

I believe we have dug up the bone of content.
In Christianity, Jesus, as a deity, eternally exists. He was the same deity before he came and after he left. His dad wasn't waiting for him with a credit card after his ascension. On the other hand, this Jesus would still have the experience of suffering and dying for eternity. There is only a net loss, or sacrifice.
And, FYI:

Would you take a bullet (dead) for a child you didn't know?

I honestly hope I would be able to if the situation arose, no matter whether or not I was killed or hurt or was late for a job interview or got a reward from either a deity or human beings.

[The Grand Nudger]

Does the idea of sacrifice itself, especially (and perhaps doubly so) as a part of a redemptive pass to heaven ever strike you as being poorly thought out?

[Ravenshire]

Knowing that you're going to have a bad weekend and come out the other side in a better position and then doing it anyway is not the same thing.

I believe we have dug up the bone of content.
In Christianity, Jesus, as a deity, eternally exists. He was the same deity before he came and after he left. His dad wasn't waiting for him with a credit card after his ascension. On the other hand, this Jesus would still have the experience of suffering and dying for eternity. There is only a net loss, or sacrifice.
And, FYI:

Would you take a bullet (dead) for a child you didn't know?

I honestly hope I would be able to if the situation arose, no matter whether or not I was killed or hurt or was late for a job interview or got a reward from either a deity or human beings.

Simply put, I don't agree with the net loss or that he died for eternity. He can't come back if he's dead as eternity will never end. I know, magic, err... miracle. I don't buy that either.

Really, I meant the "you" in those examples generally, not specifically. I also hope that I could step in for a child, mine or not. The reality is, none of us will never know unless put to the test. Hopefully that never happens.

Purplundy, I'm not quite sure what to make of you. You seem to be a reasonable Christian. Not something I've encountered much of. I'm actually beginning to like you and I think you'll make a good addition to the forum. I'm sure we'll find more to argue about.

Besides, how can you not like someone who named themselves after royal underwear?