Jesus' Sacrifice

[chatpilot]

The following is my own interpretation of the trinity, my only reference is the New Testament and my understanding of it. Even when I was a practicing Christian I believed that the trinity referred to three separate entities that were actually one in plan and purpose. Each one having a particular part to play in the overall plan of the supreme being; the biblical God.

When Jesus was baptized by John the baptist and he came up out of the water all three manifestations, personalities, or as I like to say persons of the trinity were present at the same place at the same time.

Matthew 3:16, Mark 1:10, Luke 3:22, and John 1:32 All state that when he came out of the water the spirit descended in the form of a dove and sat on his shoulder, and a voice was heard in heaven acknowledging Jesus as the son of God.

On many occasions Jesus makes the distinction between himself and the father. 2 examples
Matthew 10:32, and Mark 13:32

Jesus also referred to the holy spirit or the spirit of god as separate from himself.
John 14:16, John 14:26, and John 16:7

There are many more texts to back my theory but I think the ones I have provided should suffice to bring it home. Also, in John his reference to the comforter for those that don't know is another way to describe the holy spirit.

[LEDO]

Well your explanation has a lot less substance than the early church fathers explanation LEDO so I have no reason to switch. Certainly there were early Christians who didn't think Jesus was God, and this was corrected to fall in line with what most understood from the bible... and that's entirely supported in the texts. Trinity is never mentioned, but God the multiple yet one entity was described as such consistently.

At no time is the trinty doctrine described with any consitancy. In John, Jesus is referred to as the logos or "word" of God. This in itself is inconsistant with the current Trinity doctrine. We also know gospel texts were doctored to removed reference that Jesus was lesser than god the father. God as a multiple entity was most likely references to multiple gods.

[chatpilot]

Ledo said:"God as a multiple entity was most likely references to multiple gods. "

I have thought the same thing myself Ledo that Christianity is more of a polytheistic belief system rather than a monotheistic system. My previous post in my view helps to illustrate this pretty well.

[KichigaiNeko]

So basically you are suggesting that:

Larry is schitzophrenic.
Bob is one of the characters of Larry, with a specific personality.
Susan is one of the characters of Larry, with a specific personality.
Jen is one of the characters of Larry, with a specific personality.

Bob is not Jen, Susan is not Jen, and Jen is not Susan. However, all of them are contained by Larry.

In which case none of them ARE Larry... but all of them are contained by individual of Larry. To translate this to your god:

God is schitzophrenic.
The Son is one of the characters of God, with a specific personality.
The Holy Ghost is one of the characters of God, with a specific personality.
The Father is one of the characters of God, with a specific personality.

The Son is not the Holy Ghost, the Holy Ghost is not the Father, the Father is not the Son. However, all of them are contained by God.

I recently took an Abnormal Psych class, and I have to admit; that is not Schizophrenia. Schizophrenia is about delusions and hallucinations, and not about creating separate personae. What you have described is Multiple Personality Disorder.

Which is this basic Judeo/ Christian/ Islamic god to a T

[fr0d0]

At no time is the trinty doctrine described with any consitancy. In John, Jesus is referred to as the logos or "word" of God. This in itself is inconsistant with the current Trinity doctrine. We also know gospel texts were doctored to removed reference that Jesus was lesser than god the father. God as a multiple entity was most likely references to multiple gods.

In your mind yes. According to the balance of opinion of scholars, no.

[LEDO]

At no time is the trinty doctrine described with any consitancy. In John, Jesus is referred to as the logos or "word" of God. This in itself is inconsistant with the current Trinity doctrine. We also know gospel texts were doctored to removed reference that Jesus was lesser than god the father. God as a multiple entity was most likely references to multiple gods.

In your mind yes. According to the balance of opinion of scholars, no.

I have seen so called "Christian scholars" with that opinion, but that is not what they teach at major universities with real scholars.

[fr0d0]

I have seen so called "Christian scholars" with that opinion, but that is not what they teach at major universities with real scholars.

Really. That's not what I understand.

[LEDO]

I have seen so called "Christian scholars" with that opinion, but that is not what they teach at major universities with real scholars.

Really. That's not what I understand.

Didn't think you would.

In "The New Catholic Encyclopedia" (Bearing the Nihil Obstat and Imprimatur, indicating official approval) we get a glimpse of how the concept of the Trinity was not introduced into Christianity until close to four hundred years after Jesus (pbuh):


".......It is difficult in the second half of the 20th century to offer a clear, objective and straightforward account of the revelation, doctrinal evolution, and theological elaboration of the Mystery of the trinity. Trinitarian discussion, Roman Catholic as well as other, present a somewhat unsteady silhouette. Two things have happened. There is the recognition on the part of exegetes and Biblical theologians, including a constantly growing number of Roman Catholics, that one should not speak of Trinitarianism in the New Testament without serious qualification. There is also the closely parallel recognition on the part of historians of dogma and systematic theologians that when one does speak of an unqualified Trinitarianism, one has moved from the period of Christian origins to, say, the last quadrant of the 4th century. It was only then that what might be called the definitive Trinitarian dogma 'One God in three Persons' became thoroughly assimilated into Christian life and thought ... it was the product of 3 centuries of doctrinal development" (emphasis added).

"The New Catholic Encyclopedia," Volume XIV, p. 295


They admit it!!! Jesus (pbuh), John, Matthew, Luke, Mark, all of the apostles, and even Paul, were completely unaware of any "Trinity." !!
buffaloedu.

"The Lord possessed me in the beginning of his way, before his works of old" (Prov. 8:22)
"but of that day and that hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels which are in heaven, neither the Son, but the Father." (Mark 13:32)
"for my Father is greater than I." (John 14:38)
"and this is life eternal, that they may know thee, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent." (John 17:3)
"The Son can do nothing of himself." (John 3:19)
"Why callest thou me good? There is none good, but one, that is God." (Mark 10:18)
"Wherefore God also hath highly exalted him, and given him a name that is above every name." (Philippians 2:9)
And also passages that represented Jesus suffering, growing in wisdom etc. (Luke 2:52; John 11:33, 38; Matthew 26:39)

[fr0d0]

And that isn't new to me by a long chalk.