Once Again.... If You Don't Like France...

[The Grand Nudger]

Hey, I'm with you on that last bit. If I see a masked person doing.....just about anything...I'm absolutely not going to take anything on myself. I'm going to call the police.

[Anomalocaris]

Agree. And who kicked the roman empire out of Brittania?
We're all the product of some hostile takeover at some stage.
Speaking of race, the Caucasians are on the verge of becoming extinct!
We don't breed enough to continue long term.
That's just nature doing what comes natural.
But isn't it religion and political poverty which makes them have many offspring.

1. No one kicked the Romans out of Britannia, least of all Britons. Roman Empire in its waning days decided defends of the British isles was not necessary to the defence of the important parts of the empire, like North Africa. So one day the empire just bid Britannia good luck, Nd told stunned Britons they were on their own.

2. You have a very Eurocentric view of Caucasian race. You realize most of the people living on the India subcontinenta are considered Caucasians, right? With Africa have a relative small population baseline, and Chinese population peaking and set to decline, the Caucasian "race", if properly inclusive of people from the levant to Ganges, is not only not on the verge of extinction, but is in fact the fastest growing " race" in numerical terms, mainly thanks to population growth in India.

[BrianSoddingBoru4]

I recently (re)read Twain's 'The Innocents Abroad', in which he mentions that women in the Muslim countries he visited veiled their faces, but left their breasts exposed.

If French Muslim women want to wear the veil, I suggest a trade-off...

Boru

[ignoramus]

Kudos to "chuck" for edumacating the ignoramus in me...
I will study this further now like other things I was misinformed about.
I've learnt so much from all the cluey people on this site. Thanks to everyone.
You guys have also taught me to despise Xtards for all the "right" reasons... Hehe

[Cato]

I think this is exactly the same as gay marriage. Don't want one? Don't get one. But don't take it on yourself to stop other people getting one!

I would agree if this dress code were simply voluntary. I can't argue that some muslim women volunteer to abide, but some women go to great lengths to protest the dress code. How can we determine if someone really likes the trash bag look, versus being forced to wear it by someone that will at a minimum beat the shit out of them for disobedience? The idea of compulsion makes your gay marriage analogy untenable.

[Jacob(smooth)]

I think this is exactly the same as gay marriage. Don't want one? Don't get one. But don't take it on yourself to stop other people getting one!

I would agree if this dress code were simply voluntary. I can't argue that some muslim women volunteer to abide, but some women go to great lengths to protest the dress code. How can we determine if someone really likes the trash bag look, versus being forced to wear it by someone that will at a minimum beat the shit out of them for disobedience? The idea of compulsion makes your gay marriage analogy untenable.

That's true. But I would offer that if what troubles us is the element of coercion or compulsion then the way to approach it is to deal with element of coercion or compulsion.

The issue for me is freedom. By compelling them to NOT do something it seems to me we are impinging their freedom as much as people who would force them. That's not empowerment. That's just expecting people to do what we want instead of what some other group wants.

[pocaracas]

Double standard much?
In Iran and other muslim countries people are forbidden from wearing:
- Shorts
- Skirts that show any leg
- T-shirts
- Just any clothing that shows any skin besides face and hands.

These people left their home countries to find a better living abroad and now want to mold the other places of the world to resemble their home countries?!
Stupidity at work!

The law exists, you break it, your visa gets revoked, you go back to wherever you came from.
If you were born in this country, but still want to abide by the stupid religious rules, do so in private. It's a secular country. What you can and can't do in public is regulated. Just as much as you can't wear a face mask, you also can't be naked in public.

[Cato]

That's true. But I would offer that if what troubles us is the element of coercion or compulsion then the way to approach it is to deal with element of coercion or compulsion.

The issue for me is freedom. By compelling them to NOT do something it seems to me we are impinging their freedom as much as people who would force them. That's not empowerment. That's just expecting people to do what we want instead of what some other group wants.

I am having a difficult time imagining a practical way of dealing with the coercive side of the issue. I also don't like the inherent limitation of liberty for some, but that's why the situation presents a dilemma; there are no ideal solutions. The freedom loving side of me hates admitting that I can accept limiting certain freedoms if it also means that to some extent we can mitigate the oppression of others.

Without more considered thought on the matter I can summarize my position by stating I prioritize higher someone's right to not wear identity concealing clothes before considering someone's right to wear it because we know the coercion exists. If the coercion did not exist I would explicitly agree with your conclusion regarding a law that would then only serve to limit a choice.

[Jacob(smooth)]

Double standard much?
In Iran and other muslim countries people are forbidden from wearing:
- Shorts
- Skirts that show any leg
- T-shirts
- Just any clothing that shows any skin besides face and hands.

These people left their home countries to find a better living abroad and now want to mold the other places of the world to resemble their home countries?!
Stupidity at work!

The law exists, you break it, your visa gets revoked, you go back to wherever you came from.
If you were born in this country, but still want to abide by the stupid religious rules, do so in private. It's a secular country. What you can and can't do in public is regulated. Just as much as you can't wear a face mask, you also can't be naked in public.

How do you get from wearing a face covering to wanting to mould the country into a muslim state?! Wearing a face covering is just... wearing a face covering. Its a personal choice, It ain't moulding shit! Now if they were saying EVERYONE should wear one you might have a point. But aside from a few loony jihadist who can be ignored, thats not the case!

As to what is done in public being regulated, there are generally reasons for that. "because I don't like what it represents" is not a good one! Once you open that pandoras box, what next? Who decides what is an OK religious or political symbol and what is not? Who decides that burkas are not ok, but rasta hats or dreadlocks are. Or Crucifixes. Or those little hats Jews wear. Or the CND logo. Or Greenpeace.

I think the difference between a country where you are not allowed to wear shorts and one you are is the freedom to choose. Otherwise the only difference between us and them in regards to clothing is what item of clothing it is! That over there they don't let you wear thing A and over here they don't let you wear thing B. That makes us different to them to be sure, but does it make us any better?

To me it seems like the exact same principle. Banning an item of clothing because the government does not like what it represents. Its not ok when Iran does it and it makes me deeply uncomfortable when a western democracy does it.

I'm quite surprised I'm the only one here who seems to have a problem with this. Are there any other religious symbols or items of clothes people want to be made illegal?

[KichigaiNeko]

I am thinking that IF France objects to full face coverings (as does Australia) it is their sovereign right to enforce that position.

Good grief! IF I was to land in Qatar or any other "muslim" dominated country where it is law for me to cover my face I would do so.

I am thinking it is more a case of recipriosity than any thing else.